Universal health care? Not so fast

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So you want universal, government-controlled health care? Look at the Veterans Administration, military care facilities (dependents and active duty) and American Indian reservation health care. All of them are in a pathetic state of affairs, and cannot handle the load placed on them for lack of money.

Do you really thing universal are would be any better? Just take a look at the other nations that have this type of health care.

James Sherrill

Martinez

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patriciathomas
42
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patriciathomas 06/26/09 - 06:45 am
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Once "health care" is

Once "health care" is socialized, there'll be no more need for health insurance companies. Will that make things better? Change lefties can believe in? How long before the intentionally blind open their eyes?

GACopperhead
6
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GACopperhead 06/26/09 - 06:46 am
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Mr. Sherrill, do you have

Mr. Sherrill, do you have health insurance? I don't. I can't afford it. Please don't suggest that, if my employer doesn't offer it(he doesn't), that I change jobs. My salary can't handle the expense. The fact is, that the opinions that you and others espouse are the very cause for insurance companies, doctors and hospitals to feel that they can charge any amount that they want, because they are critical to peoples lives. It is my opinion that there needs to be TRUE competition out there. Will it cause some pain to those entities? I hope so, a lot of it. I feel that anyone who takes such advantage of situations of desperation are deserving of the harshest vilification that can occur. They are scoundrels, not unlike Scrooge or the mean banker in "It's a Wonderful Life". You will now whine about loss of choice, long waits and someone else deciding what treatment we get. THAT IS ALREADY IN PLACE! Insurance companies require you to use only doctors in their network, refuse to pay for procedures, and have delayed approval of procedures in the hope that the patient will die first. (continued)

GACopperhead
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GACopperhead 06/26/09 - 06:49 am
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Raise taxes? You already pay

Raise taxes? You already pay for indigent care, and pay higher costs to doctors and hospitals who have to make up for the looses caused by refuals to pay and bankruptcies. And PT, you only oppose change, why don't you suggest an alternative? I truly believe that you have very few original ideas, you only spout the rhetoric of your insane pundits, and NEVER offer anything of value in exchange.

Riverman1
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Riverman1 06/26/09 - 07:04 am
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GAC, you seem like an

GAC, you seem like an intelligent person, so why can't you be productive enough to pay for your own health care? Expecting others to pay for it and demanding they work hard enough to be able to pay greater taxes to fund your care is selfish.

southernguy08
496
Points
southernguy08 06/26/09 - 07:18 am
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GACOP, I know you're a smart
Unpublished

GACOP, I know you're a smart guy. Please tell me one government agency, just one, that operates efficiently and doesn't cost the taxpayers through the nose. Government run healthcare isn't the answer. Government is part of the problem...not the answer. And please tell me why it is the government's responsibility to provide you with healthcare.

GACopperhead
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GACopperhead 06/26/09 - 07:20 am
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Riverman, I work 50 hours a

Riverman, I work 50 hours a week. I manage an apartment community and maintain it. I do all the hvac and appliance repair. I maintain 2 pools, I'm on call 24/7/52, and NEVER miss a call. I make under 24k a year. PLEASE tell me how I can be more productive? I DON'T expect others to pay for my care you ignorant (expletive deleted). I demand that the prices that idiots like you have allowed by your greed, ignorance and refusal to change, be brought back to realistic levels. None of you have yet, including the Repubs in office, proffered any form of alternative. Your only mantra is don't do anything. This forum will not allow me to voice my true vilification of those like you. You would leave millions to die without care. It is my hope that in the afterlife, God allows you to experience the same desperation and fear that you espouse for others.

Riverman1
78415
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Riverman1 06/26/09 - 07:22 am
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GAC, your comments represent

GAC, your comments represent well the dilemma of those who want national health care. You say you can't afford it because of your salary. I assume if your employer had a hard time finding workers he would pay you more, but apparently, he doesn't. If you make your employer pay, will he keep his all workers? You talk about doctors/hospitals charging too much, but then admit they have to because they also treat indigents. Hospitals charge enough to stay viable. They are also usually in the red and require tax money to keep them going. Most people use insurance companies and are happy with their health care although insurance guidelines do come into play at times. Those guidelines are not some haphazard device, though. They are well thought out measures that prevent waste.

Tigger_The_Tiger
0
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Tigger_The_Tiger 06/26/09 - 07:26 am
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GAC....I seriously doubt that

GAC....I seriously doubt that you can't afford health care.....you CHOOSE not to pay for it. You clearly have Internet access. There's an unnecessary expense that could go toward health care. Do you have a car payment? If so, you could buy a cheaper car and used that money toward health car. I've done all these things before, so don't tell me it can't be done........you know that you could get health car if you chose to.

GACopperhead
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GACopperhead 06/26/09 - 07:28 am
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Southern, I won't deniy the

Southern, I won't deniy the effiency with which the Insurance and medical lobbyists have tricked politicians and the ignorant like you into acquiescing to outrageous costs, limits on care and providers and fewer services, while you are believeing that the product offered IS more efficient. To answer you question(and none of you have answered mine), it becomes the governments responsibility to regulate and offer alternatives wgen the industry fails to regulate itself. It's the government's job to step in when the industry prices a NECESSARY and LIFEGIVING service to a point that it becomes a luxury. Your ideas will eventually price medical care out of even YOUR reach, Who will pay for YOUR or your children's care when even you can't afford it?

patriciathomas
42
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patriciathomas 06/26/09 - 07:31 am
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Okay, GaC, I'll repeat what

Okay, GaC, I'll repeat what I've posted dozens of times. (but only because it drives TechLover crazier) When the federal government got into the "health care" business with medicare, ALL elderly stopped using their own health insurance because they had to pay medicare anyway. Most couldn't afford two insurances. As a result, the cost of "health care" went up because of the maintenance cost to providers for doing business with the government and being limited on payouts. The difference in cost is made up by the other customers. The government "help" expanded into medicaid, for people that "couldn't afford" the health care. Once again, the cost of providers doing business with the government went up and the other customers, those not on medicare or medicaid, were charged more to make up the difference in income. The more government got into the health care business, the higher the costs. This was 35 years ago and the problem has grown constantly since. Now the government offers to fix the problem (they precipitated) by taking over the industry, even though history shows this isn't going to work.

patriciathomas
42
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patriciathomas 06/26/09 - 07:32 am
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The solution, let government

The solution, let government back out of the health care business, beyond the watchdog position, and let the free market set the costs.

Riverman1
78415
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Riverman1 06/26/09 - 07:33 am
0
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Ahhh, but I have brought out

Ahhh, but I have brought out ideas of ways to help the poor without insurance right on these very boards in the past.. Giving everyone healthcare is an altruistic goal. Let's be realistic and admit the care uninsured get now is costly and substandard because it is usually via emergency rooms without follow-up visits and so on. I'd also guess about 90% of indigent care is primary care oriented. Thus I wouldn't try to give indigents a complete health care plan. What I would do is FUND ALMOST FREE PRIMARY CARE CLINICS that would save the hospitals lots because of decreased ER waste. 5 bucks a visit should be paid to discourage misuse. Hospitals could help with these clinics with some of the money they save. ER treatment costs much more than clinic treatment. I would use PA's and nurse practitioners to the max. also.

Tigger_The_Tiger
0
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Tigger_The_Tiger 06/26/09 - 07:35 am
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I suspect that deep down,

I suspect that deep down, even though he/she denies it, that GAC really does want someone else to pay for his/her insurance. I say this because at 24k a year, you CLEARLY CAN afford health insurance, yet chose other things over it. Internet access, probably cable tv, and other things that he/she has placed on a higher priority.

GACopperhead
6
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GACopperhead 06/26/09 - 07:35 am
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Tigger, my USED 2003 Ford

Tigger, my USED 2003 Ford pickup, required for my type of woprk cost 8500 dollars. I bet you drive a new SUV. I have no cable, have the least expensive internet I could find and don't go out to dinner. I don't date, I pay my bills, and I probably work a lot harder than you, with a MUCH higher sense of responsibility, ethics and CARE for my job. You self-serving superior attitude gives your opinion of yourself away. Read my earlier posts again for what my opinion of you and those like you is. By the way, I have NEVER said that the government should pay for my health care, and neither is Obama.

patriciathomas
42
Points
patriciathomas 06/26/09 - 07:38 am
0
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As far as helping the poor

As far as helping the poor goes, my solution is simple. Let all who wish to be on government subsidy give up the ability to reproduce while on the dole and give up the right to vote until they have been off the dole for at least one year straight. Not only would health care costs come back into line, many other social woes would right themselves.

Riverman1
78415
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Riverman1 06/26/09 - 07:38 am
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Free clinics would be

Free clinics would be rudimentary places where it would be no fun to wait and so on. Malpractice suits wouldn't be allowed because it was free. Know why I'd make them so basic? So people would work harder/smarter to have private insurance.

Tigger_The_Tiger
0
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Tigger_The_Tiger 06/26/09 - 07:42 am
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No GAC....my vehicle is not

No GAC....my vehicle is not an SUV and it's a 1998 and paid for. I treat myself to some luxuries that I couldn't get when I made less money than you, yet when I did make less............somehow I was able to provide my family with health insurance by tightening my belt. Maybe you should do the same. You suggest that you don't want someone to pay for your insurance, you just want the cost to be lower. Well if most hospitals are operating in the red (a fact) then suggesting that they lower cost so you can better afford IS asking them to pay for you. If you are not making enough money doing what you do, then maybe you should do something else. That's what I did, and it's what most ambitious people with any sense do. GAC....I complement you on your wealth envy though. "I bet you drive an SUV you evil rich man."

Riverman1
78415
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Riverman1 06/26/09 - 07:45 am
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GAC, you are falling into the

GAC, you are falling into the wealth envy paradigm. Hey, I started much poorer than it sounds like you are.

Tigger_The_Tiger
0
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Tigger_The_Tiger 06/26/09 - 07:46 am
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I was poorer...and payed for

I was poorer...and payed for my own health insurance too, Riverman.

GACopperhead
6
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GACopperhead 06/26/09 - 07:47 am
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Riverman, that IS a

Riverman, that IS a reasonable suggestion. PT, The elderly did NOT all stop paying for their own insurance, as medicare doesn't pay for everything. My parents, my in-laws, when I had them, all paid for insurance on top of medicare. You voice opinions without supporting evidence, not unlike Williston. Are you two married or related? My view is that(if it is really true) Obama's idea of an insurance "cache" with a government offered plan included is also not a bad idea. I don't believe that the price something that is absolutely necessary to life should be totally allowed to be regulated by the free market, especially when there are no viable alternatives to compete.
The medical/insurance business is, in practice, a monopoly, doing whatever it wants with prices, since all people need medical care, and they're the only dogs in the hunt. I don't disagree that, in principle, the free market would be the way to go, but just like in the food business, with it's government subsidies, the cost for something that is required for LIFE, must be kept affordable for everyone.

Grasshopper
7
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Grasshopper 06/26/09 - 07:50 am
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GACopperhead on Fri Jun 26,

GACopperhead on Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:28 AM Your employer is ripping you off 9.23 an hr for your experience. I hope they give you free rent. People who do HVAC service work start out at 15 to 18 hr then move up, not to mention what they make on side jobs. GE technicians make more also. If you enjoy what you do and are happy with your pay then that is good, but to expect others to spread the wealth for your choices is wrong.

Tigger_The_Tiger
0
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Tigger_The_Tiger 06/26/09 - 07:52 am
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So we MUST keep prices so

So we MUST keep prices so that GAC can afford things, even if it makes the people providing those things go bankrupt.

Riverman1
78415
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Riverman1 06/26/09 - 07:52 am
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The problem is that it all

The problem is that it all comes down to someone else paying or being made to work for lower wages than they deserve. Don't pay doctors enough and they will quit treating the general public. There are doctors now who won't accept Medicare and so on. Some work for cash payment only. You can't push those people who have studied and worked so hard too much. Someone has to pay and there is simply no fairer/better solution than the user paying his own way.

GACopperhead
6
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GACopperhead 06/26/09 - 07:54 am
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You guys are idiots. 24k is

You guys are idiots. 24k is BEFORE taxes. Remove 23% of that, not including FISA and medicare and I live on less than 19k. I paid my child support for 13 years, and have been financially responsible. I have NO family or anyone else to fall back on, I cover my own behind, which is the right thing to do. I have reflux, Barrett's esophagus and a family predisposition to esophageal cancer, as My father died at 58 of it, and my brother has had his entire esophagus removed because of cancer. And no, I can't afford insurance and a cost of 300 dollars a month, unless of course, you like me not to eat, have a place to live or clothes......

Tigger_The_Tiger
0
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Tigger_The_Tiger 06/26/09 - 07:55 am
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People like GAC don't care if

People like GAC don't care if quality doctors quit working as long as they get what they THINK they are entitled to.............on someone else's dime.

GACopperhead
6
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GACopperhead 06/26/09 - 07:58 am
0
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The fact is that the medical

The fact is that the medical industry must be FORCED to lower it's charges. You have not heard me ONCE advocate someone else paying for my health care. I get NONE, because I WON'T do that. I repeat that you are ALL ignorant, self-serving, ARROGANT IDIOTS, stuck on your mantras, even though they don't even relate to what the administration has suggested.

Tigger_The_Tiger
0
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Tigger_The_Tiger 06/26/09 - 08:03 am
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Demanding that they lower

Demanding that they lower their price is the same as demanding that someone else pay your way. You want to lower someone else's pay so that YOUR standard of living doesn't get affected. It's the same thing. Calling us arrogant idiots over and over does not hide your vile wealth envy.

Tigger_The_Tiger
0
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Tigger_The_Tiger 06/26/09 - 08:05 am
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If I was able to figure out

If I was able to figure out how to get my own insurance when I made under 24k and GAC can't.....who looks like a bigger idiot?

GACopperhead
6
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GACopperhead 06/26/09 - 08:05 am
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No Tigger, I DON'T care if

No Tigger, I DON'T care if the greedy lose their way to "wealth", if it's at the cost of LIFESAVING medical care. Obama is suggesting bringing in competition to the outrageous prices that doctors and insurance companies charge in order to bring things back to reasonable levels, while still allowing those who wish to, pay for their own level of insurance and care. You don't have a problem with GM and Chrysler going out of business because they were irresponsible in their planning and giving in to outrageous demands by unions, so why should you object to the same for the medical/insurance business?

Tigger_The_Tiger
0
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Tigger_The_Tiger 06/26/09 - 08:07 am
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I see...so GAC is all about

I see...so GAC is all about wealth envy. Calling people who have worked hard for what they have "greedy" is a sure giveaway. You have just rendered any further post you make as insignificant.

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