Sin supplants grace in today's society

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In reading Jon Meacham's article "The end of Christian America" (Newsweek, April 13), it seems the decline of the Christian influence in our country is in direct relationship with the decline of our values.

So what do we see that is increasing?

Disregard for our laws, drug and alcohol addiction, teenage pregnancies, a high rate of divorce, unwed mothers, bigger jails and senseless killings. All fill our morning news.

So, as Christian influence has decreased - oh, should I say the word? - sin has replaced grace!

Gilbert Ward

Evans

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patriciathomas
42
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patriciathomas 04/21/09 - 05:22 am
0
0
Most Americans are influence

Most Americans are influence by what they see on t.v.

mgroothand
5
Points
mgroothand 04/21/09 - 06:07 am
0
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patriciathomas, I seldom

patriciathomas, I seldom disagree with your POV but your comment that blames all the sins this LTE mentions on TV is a little over the top. Monkey see, monkey do is only for monkeys.

gdaddy
0
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gdaddy 04/21/09 - 06:50 am
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and we have a lot of monkeys

and we have a lot of monkeys in this area

justus4
103
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justus4 04/21/09 - 06:52 am
0
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Christian influence, this
Unpublished

Christian influence, this write odserves as the main problem facing our society. His observations are based on his personal life experiences and what guides his life. Others have different opinions and point to other flaws in society. One that is terribly obvious, but rarely connected to our plight is a complete lack of leadership and unequal terstment for the same behavior. Wealthy folk, high-ranking politicians, local well-connected individuals rarely pay the same price as the poorer, uneducated population. This failure leads to an erosion of confidence in society's institutions and thus, a disregard for life, personal responsibility and lack of hope. And to think that sin has increased from some bygone era is laughable, because it has always been here, it's just now there are mores ways to see it.

shivas
2
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shivas 04/21/09 - 06:56 am
0
0
Most should give everything

Most should give everything they have to the poor, and then become a disciple of God. I believe this would make Jesus very pleased. However, this concept would not sit well with the right-wing hypocrites who teach God's hate for humanity.

Talkatoast
0
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Talkatoast 04/21/09 - 07:35 am
0
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It only seems like it's worse

It only seems like it's worse because you hear about it more. That doesn't mean there are more criminals, OP. Remember, back then you didn't have the easy means of accessing news. Now you can access your news more. Besides, happy stories sadly don't draw a crowd in, which is why the news reports mostly negative things.

patriciathomas
42
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patriciathomas 04/21/09 - 07:37 am
0
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mgroothand, you're showing

mgroothand, you're showing your age. Half of America, the lesser half, gets all of their social ideals and mores from tv shows and they mock those that don't act like them.

zardoz35
1
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zardoz35 04/21/09 - 07:38 am
0
0
There's no such thing as sin,

There's no such thing as sin, just positive and negative behavior. Mankind has always played this game close to the line. Things have never changed, only our perspectives. As long as positive behavior is in greater suply than negative behavior, we'll survive, otherewise, most likely not.
ROBERT

55 F-100
1
Points
55 F-100 04/21/09 - 07:41 am
0
0
Justus, the "poorer

Justus, the "poorer uneducated population" are what they are because they refuse to take advantage of the opportunity to become educated by graduating from High School and pursuing a college education. "Disregard for our laws, teenage pregnancies (a career path for welfare broodmares), unwed mothers, drug and alcohol addictions, senseless killings" are PERSONAL CHOICES. The "poorer uneducated population" are what they are because they are sorry, lazy, shiftless pieces of flesh who complain about their reality and are unwilling to break away from their surroundings by getting an education and making something out of themselves. Collecting their welfare Post Office Money, their "crazy" checks, "running their illegal games" and getting busted, unwed mothers and their welfare checks, teenage pregnancies---welfare checks---apartment money---food stamps---"baby daddy" stays with her when he's not in jail. Wake up justus and all other complainers, the "poorer uneducated population" have only themselves to blame for their lot in life.

apex24
0
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apex24 04/21/09 - 07:49 am
0
0
The poor and uneducated are

The poor and uneducated are their because of the choices they made in life. Now they want the government and my tax dollars to free them from the bonds of stupidity which will never happen. Hence, Underwood Homes, Cherry Tree Crossing and on and on.

justthefacts
22674
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justthefacts 04/21/09 - 07:50 am
0
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shivas, the hypocrite,

shivas, the hypocrite, calling others hypocrites. Funny stuff.

AAQueen
18
Points
AAQueen 04/21/09 - 08:21 am
0
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55 Don't be afraid to say

55 Don't be afraid to say what you mean. Seem like this is personal to you. Do you have first hand experience?LOL And Justus, it is different now. Whereas before a gang wpn of choice consisted of knifes and baseball bats now it is an automatic wpn. I know I am telling my age but so are you. I remember the time when you could leave your door unlocked, when you could walk home after dark, and walk around without some type of protection for yourself. Yes some of the poor could turn their phlight around but some are not offered this advantage. As long as there is a system that supports them without trying to help them, ie educate, job training, day care, we will always have this situation. Before being so quick to criti-size ask yourself what have you done to improve the situation.
I hope you and others llike Apex will never find yourself in a situation where you have to eat crow.

constitutionnow
0
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constitutionnow 04/21/09 - 08:26 am
0
0
mgroothand, when we teach our

mgroothand, when we teach our children that we all evolved from monkeys, how do we expect them to act? If you tell a child that they are nothing more than a more highly evolved animal, why are we surprised when they act like animals? And by the way, for the first time, I agree with justus4. No off the wall references to race or the wretched white man! I'm proud of you justus! :o)

Jillian
2
Points
Jillian 04/21/09 - 09:33 am
0
0
We have said for years we

We have said for years we want God out and now we have it....are the schools better without prayer? Is the justice system providing better rulings now that the 10 commandments are banned? Is the absence of the Nativity scene making folks have a merrier christmas?

All I see is a lot more evil and a lot more miserable people raping, killling, assaulting, and giving more and more of their $$$$ to those who abuse it.

Maybe God isn't the one we need to be out of the picture after all?

disssman
6
Points
disssman 04/21/09 - 09:35 am
0
0
Sin has been replaced since

Sin has been replaced since we started building palaces instead of places of worship and preaching became a full time job with retirement and benefits far above the average for the flock. If preaching is a calling, why is it only until the person reaches retirement age?

bdittle
78
Points
bdittle 04/21/09 - 10:01 am
0
0
Gilbert, what is the

Gilbert, what is the timeframe on your "increasing" crime/violence? There is more of a correlation with the economy than with Christian influence.

bdittle
78
Points
bdittle 04/21/09 - 10:13 am
0
0
Also, there are some problems

Also, there are some problems with your argument. Statistics do not support religious views vs. divorce rate: Jews 30% | Born-again Christians 27% | Other Christians 24% | Atheists, Agnostics 21%.

toldya
0
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toldya 04/21/09 - 11:32 am
0
0
I think if a kid is raised

I think if a kid is raised w/o respect- he doesn't learn to respect himself or others, if he's raised w/o dignity, doesn't learn to be dignified. If a child is raised in a Godless atmoshere, he does not know God, His teachings, and the pattern repeats itself through generations. Children are creatures of their environment and when they become adults, they raise their children in the same type of environment. Its not just "good things" that are passed down from generation to generation.

Fiat_Lux
15887
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Fiat_Lux 04/21/09 - 11:47 am
0
0
Cite you source, BDITTLE. I

Cite you source, BDITTLE. I don't believe your figures.

Fiat_Lux
15887
Points
Fiat_Lux 04/21/09 - 12:06 pm
0
0
The biggest reason for the

The biggest reason for the decline in our civilization over the past 40 years is that people have stopped believing they are eternal beings with eternal destinations that depend on their choices. Once you believe this life is all there is or that 'everybody goes to heaven' no matter what they believe or do, the only reason for doing anything is to make this life as good as it can be, as pleasant and as satisfying as possible. External standards of morality and virtue don't govern effectively when a person's total focus is on enjoying his own life as completely as possible, without any concern for its impact on an afterlife. Obviously, some order must be maintained if you are to succeed in getting what you want, but self-sacrifice, virtue, heroism aren't really necessary unless you believe, first, that life in time on earth ends at the beginning of life in eternity, and, second, that this life is preparation for eternal life, whatever the belief system you choose. If there is neither good nor bad, just effective/useful/positive vs. the opposite of utilitarian, there is nothing to reign in people's most base, even bestial impulses. W/out a good wake-up, it's just going to get worse.

justus5
0
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justus5 04/21/09 - 12:25 pm
0
0
Hey Shivas, practice what you

Hey Shivas, practice what you preach?

bdittle
78
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bdittle 04/21/09 - 12:34 pm
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Fiat, truly a well

Fiat, truly a well thought-out argument and I am not dismissing it by any means. However, I am not sold on the philosophy that it is our fear or goal of the afterlife that ultimately governs our morality as human beings. Even from a secular point of view, we know love between us and our family, friends, neighbors, and even random strangers. Our desire to leave our offspring a livable environment is in our core as human beings. (I am not being "green" here as much as saying a better world for our children). Religion has been how we have historically delivered this message, but I am not convinced that religion is the keeper of these morals.

toldya
0
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toldya 04/21/09 - 02:02 pm
0
0
maybe not "religion", maybe

maybe not "religion", maybe "spirituality"?

LynxRHot
0
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LynxRHot 04/21/09 - 03:48 pm
0
0
Shivas references "God's hate

Shivas references "God's hate for humanity"....what planet is he from? He loved us enough to send His ONLY SON to die for EVERY PERSON'S SINS. That is a far cry from hate.

crackertroy
540
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crackertroy 04/21/09 - 04:46 pm
0
0
Newsweek is liberal
Unpublished

Newsweek is liberal propaganda. I lump it in with "The Sun," "The National Inquirer" and other ludicrous publications of the like. I'm not renewing my subscription to Newsweek for the first time in years. They've gone way over the top in the past year. The church isn't going anywhere.

Fiat_Lux
15887
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Fiat_Lux 04/21/09 - 05:17 pm
0
0
Jon Meacham is an

Jon Meacham is an Episcopalian in good standing and graduated from the same Episcopal university that I attended a few years before he did. He looks just like many/most Episcopalians generally do these days, which isn't necessarily all that Christian. I believe he is a very good man, but I don't equate that with being a Christian.

Fiat_Lux
15887
Points
Fiat_Lux 04/21/09 - 05:25 pm
0
0
LYNXRHOT, Shivas was not

LYNXRHOT, Shivas was not actually saying that God (or in his terminology, 'god') hates humanity, but that Christianity teaches that 'he' does. It's a subtle difference, I know, but mostly it reveals his hatred and contempt for Christians. Even more, it reveals his complete lack of understanding of the Gospel and of any orthodox doctrine. He, as with many others, hastens to equate imperfect, even sadly failing Christians-- sinners just as is everyone else alive-- with Christianity itself. It's the SSDD from Shivas, the hater.

Fiat_Lux
15887
Points
Fiat_Lux 04/21/09 - 05:58 pm
0
0
BDITTLE: Thank you for your

BDITTLE: Thank you for your excellent response (12:34pm). You were very kind in revealing my tendency toward reductionism. I believe you are mostly correct in what you say about our families and friends inspiring us to altruistim and 'moral' behavior. But yet again, the standard is based solely on perhaps arbitrary definitions of what constitutes 'good' for those people, assuming it transcends simple survival. Your argument takes us forward from the stone age to about 6,000 years ago, give or take a millenium, when the most advanced societies were tribal. I think we are hoping today for something beyond what we are seeing on the news and in the streets and schools. The most advanced order of civilization, where the individual is of eternal importance, every single unique individual every to have lived-- which, obviously, constitutes all of humanity-- is fully outlined and described by the Gospels. It has been further illuminated by the Church, in her many permutations, some correctly and some with stunning errors and heresy attending.

KSL
134058
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KSL 04/21/09 - 06:38 pm
0
0
Fiat, remember this, posted

Fiat, remember this, posted by shivas April 24, 2008....... I am also Episcopalian.......

Fiat_Lux
15887
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Fiat_Lux 04/21/09 - 07:00 pm
0
0
Yeah. Big deal. He's

Yeah. Big deal. He's definitely not a Christian. Why he bothers going to an Episcopal church is beyond me, apart from the social aspect of it. Believe me, I know this. I am the only person on either side of my family who has left the Episcopal church, since, well, forever.

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