When the Episcopal Church decided to become the pro-gay church, in stark contrast to the teachings of the Bible, they knew it would cause a division in their organization. I don't see how anyone could be surprised.
The bishop overseeing the splintered congregation of Saint John's Episcopal Church said Monday he was saddened and shocked upon learning most of its members have left the Episcopal Church.
The pastor of the North Augusta church and a majority of the 90-member congregation cut ties with the national denomination on Sunday in a dispute over church teachings on gay clergy and the authority of scripture.
"It was a complete surprise to me," said Bishop Dorsey F. Henderson of the Episcopal Diocese of Upper South Carolina.
It is shocking, he said, that the Rev. Rob Hartley would lead a congregation away from the church without first discussing the decision with church leadership.
"I ordained Father Hartley. I saw him through the process of ordination," he said. "I wish we could have talked and prayed about this, but I respect if this is what their conscience requires."
The bishop hasn't decided what will happen to the Saint John's property. It is owned by the diocese, which could appoint a new pastor to lead the members who didn't follow the Rev. Hartley to his newly created Church of the Holy Trinity.
After gauging reaction to Sunday's announcement, the senior warden of Saint John's, Paula Wahl, said she doubts anyone will remain with her former church.
"I only know of one person, maybe two," she said.
Bishop Henderson says he's not deterred by the prospect of a small returning flock.
"When I became the bishop 14 years ago, Saint John's was down to a mere handful of members," he said. "Father Hartley built that congregation up. I think that can happen again."
It's the second time in less than a year that Bishop Henderson has had to decide the future of a parish.
Last spring, the Rev. George N. Gray Jr. resigned from St. Christopher's Episcopal Church in Spartanburg.
"When he left, he took about half the congregation," said Bishop Henderson, who is based in Columbia. Almost a year later, "They are growing gradually. I've just appointed a new vicar. They're going to make it."
The same, he said, could happen with Saint John's.
In the meantime, he's coming to terms with his disappointment over the congregation's decision.
"Any division in the Church weakens the Church's mission," he said in a statement released after learning of the church's decision on Monday. "And when people leave they not only deprive those with different views of their voice, but they also deprive themselves of prayerful viewpoints which they need to consider.
"The Episcopal Church -- indeed, traditional Anglicanism -- respects highly the individual intellect and conscience, and I respect the decisions of Fr. Hartley and others at St. John's as a decision of conscience. Nevertheless, it breaks my heart."
Reach Kelly Jasper at (706) 823-3552 or kelly.jasper@augustachronicle.com.
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When the Episcopal Church decided to become the pro-gay church, in stark contrast to the teachings of the Bible, they knew it would cause a division in their organization. I don't see how anyone could be surprised.
Yep it will do it every time when people have a good grasp of the truths of the Bible. It should have been expected from lessons of the past with other churches and denominations.
I had neighbors who split from the Episcopal church when it became pro-gay. I'm sure this is happening all across America.
Too many church flavors about. Taking away the non-profit tax-free fiddle incentive will really sort them out.
It amuses me greatly how many people are willing to interpret a church being accepting of gay people as "pro gay". Although the New Testament doesn't mention homosexuality in great detail, based on who Jesus did minister to, I have to think that he wouldn't balk at administering the gospel to homosexuals or even have them teaching it to others. The apostle Matthew was a tax collector, for crying out loud!
It's always been pro-human being, not pro-gay. As an Episcopalian, I respect the rights of those who split. As guylncognito points out, Jesus was a minister to all, and accepted all as his followers. The new modern age revisionist bible interpreted by the political right-wing paints Jesus as unaccepting and accusatory. Something the Bible certainly does not portray.
again, pat's comments're the most cogent,,, as an episcopalian for over 51yrs by choice, the developements've left me puzzled/dismayed/confused/wandering,,, i haven't left the church - the Church's left me & itself,,, the Anglican now beckons.
To many people want to try to change to make the Bible "politically correct". The fact of the matter is the Bible can never be made politically correct because the Word of God will never change. I support this group for splitting against a denomination which has drifted from the true Word of God.
I have no respect for bigots.
Your right shivas. The Bible keeps changing in favor of the bigots. Matthew 19:12 " For some are eunuchs because they were born that way. Others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”
You're missing it, guyincognito. The Christian faith does not shun gays. However they do believe, (based on scripture) that homosexuality is a sin. This is treated as all other sin, and in the context that we are all sinners. However, the Episcopal church took this a step further, by saying that it is not a sin. That's a little more than just being 'accepting'. “Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!” Isaiah 5:20-21
The benighted bible-thumpers, patriciathomas & stadry are very selective about which parts of the unholy canon they chose to embrace, and which parts they ignore. For example, the Hebrew scriptures (aka, old testament) contain approximately 623 laws promulgated by their sky-daddy. Why is it then, that only ten of those laws appear on believer's front lawns? And, why is it only those same ten the bible-thumpers try to force be installed in taxpayer-funded public places such as court houses? The answer is that so many of the unpopular laws are quite inconvenient/embarrassing: e.g., stoning of harlots, slaying of unbelievers, kindly (yet firm) management of slaves, sacrificing of animals, pentateuchal food laws, etc. Naturally, the devoted supplicates have invented all manner of convoluted, non sequitur rationalizations to explain why the Hebrew scriptures are not "binding" on Christians. However, the new testament comments re homosexuality (1 Cor 6:9; Rom 1:18), as filtered by centuries of translations and bigotry, are embraced with great vigor by the bible-thumpers. ---"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." (Saul Bellow)
Shivas, blabbering about something you obviously know little or nothing about (which is typical). How about telling us WHICH "revisionist right-wing" Bibles you are talking about that aree "accusatory". Specifics rather than baloney please..
Knave, you obviously didn't catch the FACT that Jesus broke Christians away from Mosaic law and Paul's letters spell out that one did not have to be circumcised to be a Christian as being un necessary to enter Heaven, but belief in Him. Jesus died for this and Paul spent a lot of time writing hhis letters from jail. Were we still following Mosaic Law, then we would all be Hasidic Jews and not Christians.
Now, now, jack calling your "faith" in myths and fables "FACT" truly does stretch the meaning of the word. Now, I know that you folks have devised ways of rationalizing your way around this one, but since it is found in your holy book, I'll quote it here. Your favorite personage obviously wholeheartedly endorses those old Hebrew (sky-daddy) laws -- quite the contrary to your saying that he "broke Christians away from Mosiac law: "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:18-20) --- "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." (Bertrand Russell)
And in this corner, we have SHIVAS, proof postive that you don't have to be a Christian to be an Episcopalian. BTW, Jesus accepts people right where they are when they turn to him, but he intends for them to leave behind the "old man" and turn away from sin in order to spend eternity in the presence of the Lord of all creation. Christians are taught to love and accept gays, and pretty much anybody else, sinners that we all are. That doesn't mean Christians are supposed to condone, approve or tolerate behaviors that fly in the face of decency and Christian morality. Some things simply have been forbidden us humans, and there's just no way to get around it. Homosexual sex, hetero sex outside marriage, murder, stealing, adultery... It's not a particularly long list, but it's a pretty definite list.
vikes, the label bigot is easily thrown around and has come to mean anything but what it really does mean. To be a true bigot, one must also prejudge whatever person or group one is supposedly bigotted agains. In this case, evidently, you believe God is a bigot, because it was He who decided that homosexuality was loathsome and disgusting (an abomination). It isn't bigotry that has those who believe in the words of God rather than be politically correct as we say these days.
The negativity and ignorance expressed in the majority of these posts is frightening. Further, the fact that the entire congregation is following this man who retired from a secular career before becoming ordained gives me shivers. In fact, the manner in which he is establishing this new church is to be questioned. His ordination carried with it the responsibility to communicate with the authorities over him (especially the Bishop). The Bishop sent him to St. John's to teach and nuture the people. Instead, he usurps control of the people and manipulates them into following him in an act of rebellion. The core of this small church has been established for a long time. They have always had differing opinions, but why did they suddenly (after less than two years) decide to follow this man out into the world to establish a new church? It reminds me of a friend's 90-year-old mother who grew up wearing a red kerchief as a forced member of Hitler's youth army. She says that the methods of organized religion are no different than Hitler's methods -- it is all about controlling people, especially their minds!
Knave, if Jesus preached succumbing to Mosaic Law, why was he hounded by the Saducees for Himself breaking those laws (as the Sadducees interpeted them) and for which he was crucified..
The Bishop says the decision was "a complete surprise." That shows how out of touch the Bishop is with the people in the pews, in the community, working in soup kitchens, etc. The Bishops need to visit small churches, talk to congregants, listen to their concerns, and learn that maybe sometimes the people are correct and the "leaders" have themselves been led astray.
Oh jack, my, my, you have proven my point that "you folks have devised ways of rationalizing your way around this one." It is really me that should be asking the questions, not you, since you are the authority. But... since you asked...the real story line found in the holy book is that your man put himself in a rather untenable position when he claimed to be a messiah and "the son of god" (for all you trinitarians who may be watching, note that he did not claim to be "god the son"). That was the blasphemy, as legend has it, which got the religious zealots' underwear in a knot. Gee, come to think of it, the behavior of religious zealots hasn't changed much over the years. Anyway, the whole opera was foreordained by the sky-daddy so the story had to end the way it did, no matter what. Let's see now, sky-daddy plans to have sky-daddy's son killed in a most brutal and hideous way. But...sky-daddy's son is really sky-daddy himself, so what we have here is an arranged suicide, presided over by a schizophrenic all-loving compassionate being, who sends the third (ghostly) "person" of his personality to spread peace and love everywhere. Wow, that hasn't worked out too well.
Knave, Why do you feel it is necessary to bash someone's belief in God or the Holy Trinity? We are not bashing you because of your unbelief.....we only pray you.
WOW!!! Will the REAL Christian please stand up.
Freedom of religion applies to everyone in this country. Schisms are nothing new in religion, and it's better to go to a church whose beliefs most closely mirror your own (having said that, I would not leave a church because of gay people, but I respect the right of others to worship as they please)
A complete surprise? Where has this guy been. He's so out of touch with his constiuents that their leaving the church to form a new church is a surprise. This bishop is a big part of the problem.
"The pastor of the North Augusta church and a majority of the 90-member congregation"
Now is the congregation but 60?
In a time where churches need all members that they have, splitting into little sects doesn't help.
From what I've known of Anglicans they're pretty tolerant overall (more so than Baptists and Methodists), and this break away leaves a bitter taste to me, knowing it's not what I've seen before. Hopefully, it's just a blip, and not a wholesale philosophy change. That would be sad, as we need more outlets for faith, not more Taliban style hardline splinter groups.
"But...sky-daddy's son is really sky-daddy himself, so what we have here is an arranged suicide, presided over by a schizophrenic all-loving compassionate being, who sends the third (ghostly) "person" of his personality to spread peace and love everywhere. Wow, that hasn't worked out too well."....... I try to be tolerant of different beliefs, but atheists are so bitter and like to push the buttons of any faith, that they remind me a lot of Chicken Little. BTW, in your efforts to marginalized faith, you actually help all faiths to war against you. I'm not a Christian, but time and time again, needed to step in on religious debates to tackle some wayward "I HATE ANY TOOTH FAIRY" atheists, who can't even respect themselves to respect any other faith. So in your effort to mock Christianity, you also mock other faiths, so don't complain you're being "picked upon" for "being different". You get "picked upon" because of your behavior, and the lack of common decency. Mankind will always have a need for faith, as there is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole (you will be calling for some higher power than yourself to make it through. Human will is never enough).
For a true atheist to feel comfortable, he must attempt to belittle all theists. Just as the Episcopal church did when it decided it didn't like part of the teachings of the Bible.
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