The case of State v. Mars

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One thing is certain in the case of the 416 children seized at a polygamist ranch in Texas: No one will win.

It will be nearly impossible for a judge to dispose of that many alleged abuse/neglect cases in any acceptable way, even -- or perhaps especially -- dealing with them as one single case.

Moreover, how can any government official bridge the cultural gorge between mainstream America, and its laws, and a commune that has been secretive, secluded and sequestered for generations? Many of the "Yearning for Zion" ranch women, who appear almost robotic even when wailing about the seizure of their children, may never have spoken to outsiders before. Watching them being interviewed by television news crews was akin to viewing the arrival of a flying saucer's inhabitants. There was a shared language, certainly, but little else in common.

It might as well be the court case of State v. Mars .

This is what you get when laws are flouted in the bright Texas sun for years. When prohibitions against polygamy and child marriage are openly ignored, and governments look the other way for decades. When the definition of marriage isn't even certain anymore.

You get a huge mess, a traumatic and sudden clash of cultures that's triggered when some alarm -- in this case a call from a mysterious alleged 16-year-old abuse victim -- shakes authorities awake to go do something about it all.

That "something" is a highly delicate matter, particularly in the Land of the Free. People have a right to be cloistered, eccentric, oddly religious, left alone. They have a right to raise their children as they see fit, as long as no crimes are committed. And the government had better be doggone careful, pretty certain in their suspicions of imminent peril to the children, before taking them away from their mothers thusly.

On the other hand, the right to be left alone does not include the right to abuse children, to violate marriage laws and to make underage girls unwilling and perhaps unwitting brides and child-bearing vessels to dirty old men.

Yet, taking even one child out of a home is one of the toughest things a social worker will ever do. Imagine taking 416 at one time.

There's an inherent danger in Texas' "Sam's Club" approach to this case. Does the cry for help from one alleged 16-year-old girl give the state legal cover to seize 415 others?

Some of those tears on TV seemed awfully scripted, even manipulative. And when reporters asked legitimate questions about underage marriages and such, the mothers sure clammed up or tried to change the subject.

But they're still mothers. And the state has taken their children.

The state had better hope it has the goods. Otherwise, it might do more harm than good.

Nobody will win in this case. But there's a whole lot of folks on all sides who stand to lose.

Comments

patriciathomas

At this point, we don't even know the phone call came from the ranch. Unless there really was an embedded agent in the ranch (as authorities claim) we really don't know what's happening there. The place look clean and well organized in the pictures. No cases of child abuse have been claimed by the government forces yet, just potential. This seems like some drastic action taken by the government forces, from the information made available. At least it's a much more intelligently run operation then the attack of the mindless fools on the Branch Davidians.

shivas

I wonder if patriciathomas would defend the Nuwabians in Middle Georgia, who had the same thing happen to them. But then again, they're a Black religious sect rather than white.

intheknow

Patricia Thomas, as one of the responding Agent to the Branch Davidian, I take offense to your " Mindless fools " characterization. First of all, where you there? If not, I guess you get your information from that " Left-winged media", you so vilify? How long did people like you expect us to wait to enforce the laws of this country? We were not the ones that shot and killed Federal Agents, that were carrying out their lawful duties. You consider yourself to be a Conservative, yet you take the side of some wacko. After the deaths of the agents, how long should we have waited, 100days, 2 years, heck I guess we should have turned away and just let those poor misunderstood people alone. Over 30 years of working to serve and protect ungrateful people like you, have me asking my head. I forgot most of our agents are products of " Government Schools". Surely all you superior, intelligent people, know better what to do in those situations, than those of us who have dedicated our lives to carrying out the laws of this country. I will suggest to the Director that we place your number on speed dial, so that we can solicit your advice in future entrenched situation.

john

Poor Shivas, always the victim.

patriciathomas

intheknow, The assault on the Branch Davidians was poorly handled and apparently without competent leadership, from the DC orders to the on site leaders. I'm not commenting on the rank and file of the job, just the leaders and the end result. The conclusions you've jumped to are many and wrong.

patriciathomas

shivas, I've never heard of the Nuwabians until today.

patriciathomas

reTired Arm, your usual blather makes its usual sense. None.

Little Lamb

I, too, am troubled about the raid on the church compound in El Paso. The "complaint" that started it all sounds kind of flimsy. Breaking family bonds (even non-traditional families) is a slippery slope that some of us pray our government would stay out of.

critter

So nobody here has a problem with 12 year-old brides to 50 year-old grooms?

patriciathomas

critter, is that the case? None of us like the situation you mentioned, also, none of us know this is what is happening. The point I and others are making is that we feel the government MAY have once again overstepped its bounds. Remember the blunder of Waco.

critter

None of us know this is happening? What planet have you been on? The "prophet" of this place is in jail - for enabling child rape due to the fact that he's been performing these wedding ceremonies at this compound - more than once!!

DeborahElliott2

I do have a problem with just turning teen to marry a 50 year old man, I even have a problem with a bed in the SANCTUARY! I don't think this girl got out of there in time, I don't think it a flimsy excuse to investigate things on the compound. Once more, where is the girl? Nobody ever found her. This is NOT something that the government should "stay out of" when it comes to what they found when the raid happened! The "blunder" in Waco happened cause they were going to kill everyone anyway. The Leader saw to that.

FallingLeaves

The Nuwabians had representatives in the last Martin Luther King parade I attended. And the last the city administrator at that time attended, he resigned the position shortly after observing the parade. The Nuwabians made a different impression than the "band dancers", but still not a good one.

Dan White

I know a woman who married at age 14 and was married for about 60 years until her husband died. She had four children - all very successful today. Half of my high school friends would be in jail today. It was a status symbol for a freshman girl to date a high school senior back then. Times have changed but these people in the FLDS haven't changed with the times. Men 18 and over still have sex with teens but go to jail if reported. The government needs to get out of our sex lives and deal with sexual abuse on a case by case basis whether it be a teen or an elderly woman. But, no, they go in there wholesale and separate these kids from their moms. A 15 year old is old enough to be tried as an adult in many states, but not old enought to consent to sex? If it is not consensual, it is rape and should be prosecuted. But, give me a break! If a kid can be prosecuted as an adult, then why can't the kid consent to sex? This incident of removing the children from their mothers reminds me of Hitler who separated the Jewish moms from their children. Our country is better than this I would hope.

critter

The big difference is that those girls that dated seniors, and the ones that even married back then, weren't being told by their parents and spiritual leader that their only ticket to heaven was to marry this guy whether they wanted to or not.

Dan White

Arranged marriages have been around for centuries. Over at Murphey Village in N. Augusta, they arrange marriages for children but wait (I think) until they are of legal age. But, agreed, good point critter.

patriciathomas

critter, if what you are assuming is correct, then a tragedy is taking place all around the FLDS ranches. But, after seeing the interviews with the ranch women, nothing was cleared up about the raid except that the children (younger then teens) have been separated from their parents so the authorities can grill them. If that happened to you, you'd have the grounds for a big civil suit against said authorities. None of the children showed outward signs of abuse. Other possibilities are that the police have been set up by a competing sect, or that an official doesn't cater to polygamy(illegal) or that the first amendment has finally been changed to mean you can no longer worship as you wish or the whole thing may have been precipitated by a crank call. Before I jump to too many conclusions, I'd like some more reliable information.

critter

If what I am assuming is correct: well, here's the link where the bastard was convicted of being an accomplice to rape, scroll down to Nov 20, 2007 for the conviction portion: http://www.utcourts.gov/media/hpcases/index.cgi?mode=displayentries&pare...

He's been marrying off girls to guys, some guys much older than the girls, and when the girls haven't wanted to do it, he's told them that their eternal salvation depends on this. He's also up for trial in another state, Texas, I believe.

Now, I can truly appreciate that you all are concerned about gov't interference in people's personal lives and personal choices but in this particular case I think you're dead wrong. For starters, polygamy is illegal. It's not that these people are clannish, I mean for heaven's sake, the Amish have been left to themselves for the most part - BUT they're also not in court defending themselves against polygamy rape charges.

Dan White

Let's see. If a man has sex with 20 different women and fathers 20 different children, that's OK. No law is broken. But if a man has 20 different "wives" then he breaks the law. And remember, these FLDS men are only legally married to one woman. The other women he "marries" are married in the eyes of God according to their doctrine. How can the state justify taking a 5 year old child away from his/her mother unless they can specifically charge that mom or dad or boyfriend with abuse? The state has way overstepped the bounds of law, common sense, and decency here.

critter

Once again, I am absolutely astounded. Shouldn't be by now, I know, yet I am. Okay, it's none of the gov'ts business - why do we even have social services? If you're 20, 30, 40, or 50 and you want to marry a 12, 13 or 14 year-old in a spiritual marriage, why not? Hey, if you want to marry them in a legal manner, if the parents are willing to sign off on it, why not? None of the gov'ts business, after all.

imdstuf

Because the AC questions it, some of the blind numb followers of it agree the government overstepped, but had Texas did nothing, the AC and its followers would be bad mouthing the Texas government for not doing enough.

patriciathomas

imdstuf, I'm sorry your deductive reasoning suffers so often. I wish there were some way to help you. Most are saying that more information is required before deciding whether the government acted in a wise and propitious manner.

Dan White

critter, I never posted that we should not have social services. I posted that they cannot go in wholesale and take 400 kids away from their moms. They need to make a case by case assessment and take the ones out who are indeed being abused like they normally do. That is, on a case by case basis. And, how do we know that the foster homes, many of which have abused the children in their government care, are going to do any better. The government needs extra care these days in placing children in foster homes.

imdstuf

PT, you said it was drastic action taken from the information provided. Then stop right there and let us find out all the information. All your posts on the topic show that you, taking the AC's lead, are leaning towards believing we do know as much as the officials that led the raid.

patriciathomas

imdstuf, all we know is what we've been told. The authorities may well know much more. Let's wait and see if the do before deciding right and wrong.

WHATDIDIDO

" Government Schools", "Government homes" and now " Government Care". Sounds like a lot of civilian bull.

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