Values added

The best educated person will never make a difference without the acknowlegement of God in his or her life. No matter how strong, quick-witted, or monied a person is without God all is in vain. Take God off the back shelf and put Him back into our society and we will all come through these evil times a stronger nation, a nation of God fearing people is greater than all other nations put together. But either way God is still in charge even though the people try and forget; He will never change for any of us so why keep trying......The Roar of Love is worth the seeing....

Hey Christian, that sounds exactly like the message Iran gives it's citizenry. Keep religion out of school and politics.

No shivas it worked for generations until the 60's and then we who had no sense let God be shelved so to speak.....That is the way it is...

One of our major parties bases it's platform on "no moral standards" and "no parameters". To them, there are no absolutes, no right or wrong, except as it relates to them. Being judgmental is for ignorant buffoons. As shivas states in his 7:00am post, they are unable to discern right from wrong. Christian values are indistinguishable from radical Islam values (to the left). This effort will only appeal to those who are innately honorable. The myrmidons of the left will see it as foolish actions of the fools.

The way I see it God, church, family has for the most part been flushed down the proverbial toliet when we, baby boomers, came along and decided the moral geography needed to take a radical turn of 360 degrees. We had to apply ourselves to doing it our way, which turned out to be about as good as dumpster diving into a nest of snakes. While our heads were so far into "whatever makes me feel good" we allowed a Godly system of morals to fade away and replaced with the run away generations that care about nothing or no one but themselves.....

I think people confuse moral and values (which change like the wind) with sin. Islam, Christianity, and Judaism spell out sin quite well. Morality often has nothing to do with sin. Teaching morals, values, and sin is the parents job. An education examines issues with a neutral point of view and examining all aspects of an issue (even ones that offend you personally). We should teach our children with a NPOV and let them decide their own POV. This POV will also be influenced by their upbringing and parents values which it is their job to instill. I see so many people who "grew up" in the church, but as adults will have nothing to do with it. 80% of protestant kids leave the church and never come back once in college.

Teaching values, in any form, should be welcomed. Bizarro..To an extent you are right about young adults leaving the church. You left out the fact that they eventually return. They are our church leaders of tomorrow.

patriciathomas: Christianity is the ultimate "no absolutes" message. Oh, sure, there are lots of "do's and don't's," but for Christians, "real Bible believin' Christians" as you all like to call yourselves, in the end they don't really count! The message of "The Roar of Love," the "ballet" based on C.S. Lewis's doctrinaire "Chronicles of Narnia," is that you can break all the rules, and in the end, if you just believe, some mangy old lion will give you a "get out of jail free" card. Christians are never ultimately responsible for their "sins." The ACES cleverly disguises the fact that "The Roar of Love" is mere Christian propaganda. The fact that Focus on the Family plans to show up gives the game away. Just what our kids need! More "you never really have to be responsible for your actions" religion carefully disguised as a children's story.

ee liberal how thought provoking your message....Just so sad wow.....maybe you need some meds to overcome your obvious depression..:-o..just trying to help out...

And your post is responsive...how?? After all, it's your faith, not mine, that teaches whatever sinful things you do in life are paid for, in advance, not by you, but two thousand years ago by some Middle Eastern guy with a beard, or by the mangy lion or another of his cartoon surrogates. All you have to do is tell the man with the beard that you really, really love him, and he puts in a good word with his dad. Throw in a little grape juice and a stale cracker just to make sure the magic works! You know, it's hard to make up stuff like this, but you Christians have done it well for quite a while now. And sorry to bust your bubble, but I am a thoroughly happy, well-adjusted person. Now why don't you just go somewhere an "pray for me," which is the usual Christian threat of last resort.

Noooooo ee liberal I dont make threats...settle down now....

Christian, so the boomers did a moral 360? Why not a 720? They are back in the same place? Confusion is all that matters.

EEL it is always someone's propaganda. You remind me of Christians with their anit-evolution rants in creating "strawman argument" to discredit the opposition and subtantiate their view.
I guess with the Lewis reference we can talk about the idea of "universal moralilty" and get into apologetics and philosophy. Christians usually retort that you have "hardened your heart" or God has hardened your heart. Seems all will die happy. Christians with eternal life, and atheist will just die. Both live life with a certain "world view" that molds actions. The analogy of "being homosexual" is appropriate. It is just "who you are" and you don't have to understand or like it. I think "faith and belief" are very biological and a needed entity in the life of the majority of humans, much as art and music. All faiths herald the one "true God" (some exceptions) and believe the others are myths. We all want to believe we are right, but we don't have to degrade others who we believe are wrong. I have that problem with christians, atheists, or other faiths. "Don't come knocking on my door with your propaganda" is a common response that I often share.

What is the Columbia County Board of Education doing being involved with religious groups?

Bizarro: Your response is pretty reasonable, lots I can agree with. I do happen to agree it's all propaganda. I am a relativist in the sense that I don't think it possible to ever prove any metaphysical set of beliefs, or values, even atheistic ones. But I don't see where in my post you find any Christian "straw man." I didn't make up the core Christian belief that acceptance of Christ results in atonement. That's what they (you?) believe!! A "straw man" is an argument which misrepresents an opponents true position with the intent of making it easier to knock down. No one has yet answered my main point: the Christian belief in the ultimate forgiveness of "sin" is, de facto, an anti-absolutist view. Just believe, and in the end, you don't get punished. Crime pays !!

grouse: good question! Of course you are going to hear from the "separation of church and state is a myth" crowd, but after all, you live in the Baptist-believin', Bible-thumpin, belly protrudin', brain devolvin' South! No doubt the CCBOE buys into the covert message of C.S. Lewis's infantilized version of Original Sin, and welcomes the story's not-so-subtle indoctrination of kids.

That is a very good point to discuss Grouse. Why just the christian philosophy and why not other perspectives? The Buddha offered similar suggestions as Christ. Why can't atheist be seen as possessing good morals and values? America is a melting pot. Christianity has nothing to do with following good morals and values anyways because the basic premise is that humans are incapable of good and are sinful by nature-only through Christ is any action considered "good". Remember David was a murderer, adulterer, betrayer, etc, and still close to God's heart. Our society should create a standard of "morals and values" independet of religion-since there are so many and no belief. An atheist is just as capable of honest, moral, and a good and decent person as anyone else. I have experienced plenty of dishonest, immoral, and rotten people who claimed christianity as their faith.

Actually EEL. Faith and belief aren't just it. It is not an event of accept this and all is forgiven. In fact just the opposite. You are to work out your salvation with fear and trembling-it is a process. Eternal life is a reward for obeying Christ and becoming like him through the Holy Spirit. Christ says many belevers who even cast out demons in his name will be cast into the lake of fire and taste the second death, because they did not "obey" his commandments and their "hearts" were not pure. You have to believe and obey, which means God demands you to be perfect and like his son-Christ. Whether Christ was a liar, insane, or divine his message is one of love and forgiveness. I would hope all would agree that is a worthy pursuit.

Bizarro: what a disappointment. I hoped, vainly it turns out, for some semblance of reasonableness. What you produced was the usual mumbo-jumbo. Like "fear and trembling" (warmed over Kierkegaard), "cast out demons" (you're serious, "demons"?), "obeying Christ" (the essentially authoritarian nature of Christianity--you really don't trust yourselves, do you?), "the lake of fire"?? (Christianity as a B grade scary movie), "hearts were not pure" (Christians always find a way to drag in sex), and much, much more. It's almost hard to believe the same person wrote the two posts signed Bizarro. Do you happen to have a demented, not too bright, evil twin?

I am stating what is Christian belief and some were quotes from the bible (should have used quotations). It is like science you can use other language to describe something (like evolution) but it is not as good as the actual definition (shift in gene alleles in a pop. with time). Demons or fallen angels is a part of it. Attacking my intelligence or sanity is not an argument. Fortunately I don't have to prove my intelligence-I'm retired and already proved myself. I should warn you the moniker Bizarro is well earned-remember Superman. "Pure" has nothing to do with sex-not too bright or just your way of thinking, eh. If you want to get in a match of wits, how would we go about it? Compare education, achievements, publications, titles, grants, knowledge??? What is your specialty?? I should point out that correlating "belief" with "intelligence" is a non sequitur. Plenty of brilliant minds that are of the christian faith. I too am disappointed as you provide only argumentum ad hominem. I did address your question that it is not just "belief" but also "obedience" that is an issue. Anyways I think even with beliefs as different as our we could find common ground. I agree with Gagirl concerning abortion, although our logic and beliefs are completely different-we both agree there should be legal abortions.

Bizarro: OK, I get it, you're really smart. I prefer to say little about myself personally, given my views, so you will have to accept my assurances that my background, education, accomplishments and so forth are at least the equal of yours. If you've read my posts regularly, I shouldn't have to tell you that. Of course the "sex" comment was tongue-in-cheek (surprised a really bright guy you missed that), an evidently too subtle reference to the Christian preoccupation with sexual matters. And on the ad hominem thing, you would have avoided it with less murky writing. You failed to make clear you were repeating Christian ideas and not necessarily claiming them. Oh, I know, sometimes really smart guys get ahead of themselves. It happens.... For example, you assert "correlating 'belief' with 'intelligence' is a non sequitor." I think you probably meant correlating belief with NON-intelligence is a non sequitor. (It's OK!) I reject either correlation. I correlate religious "belief" with a need shared by many humans, both bright and dull, to assuage their metaphysical fears about death. It takes more courage to face life, and death, without the comforting myths of faith.

See we can find common ground. So we are both really smart (LOL). Anyways we could both make up a bunch of crap just the guy on Wikipedia. I was reading an article on "superstition" and was amazed at the number of educated and often highly intelligent people who are superstitious. I think this is biological-spirituality, superstition, all the same ilk. Thanks for clearing up my writing. I type quickly and my mind and mouth or hands are often not engaged so I do get ahead of myself. Sorry. An ADD thing I suspect. I have already faced life and death without faith. I haven't faced death since becoming a christian. I didn't become a Christian to go to heaven or not to go to hell. I still care little nor think about an afterlife. I have found no comfort in Christianity nor are you promised any-it promises you will suffer and be rejected by man for your belief. Ironic, eh? This faith is a new thing and is completely based on "experiencing God". So just like C.S. Lewis-wheels go round in circles don't they-either I'm a liar, insane, or I have experienced God. I'm not lying, and I am content with either of the other options. I can tell you that this "belief" has changed me as a person. Oh yeah, there is no such word as non-intelligence is there???

but what if you are wrong eel?

I know that might be hard to imagine.

As a person who in the past have had a geunine dislike for Newt Gingrich, I want to say that he made an absolutely unbelievable speech today concerning values and morals in the nation. I happened to have the set on C-span and before I could switch, he had grabbed me. Very thought provoking. Usually those appearances are re-broadcast and I would urge everyone to check it out. It sure won't hurt. No name calling, no living in the past, only suggestions for a better future.

I believe that religion and being gay, should keep to yourself and in the privacy of your home. As a semi-intelligent adult I don't need to hear any of the preaching. In this day and age do we really need the church to tell us what is right and wrong? Oh I forgot, for those who can't live by a standard set of morals you needs someone to confide in and tell you it's ok that you strayed. I'm so sick of hearing that Jesus died on the cross for my sins, I assume responsibility for my own actions and would never try to say that if I did something immoral that's it's ok because some dude 2000 years ago was nailed to a cross.

aftbrn...You don't have to be religious to believe in ethics and morals. Just read the Ten Commandments. They are good commandments for everyone of any persuasion to follow.

Everyone "is" responsible for "their" own actions, nor is sin ever O.K. The ten commandments were given to man (the jews in this instance) as some guide or set of standards to live by. Obviously God was not content with such actions as Christ even set the bar higher as far as standards go. Don't murder is a good societal view, but Christ said to not even anger and to love your enemy-even die for them. What is truyl amazing is that this "myth' has lasted for 2000 years and molded the history, art, music, science, society, etc of mankind. Like Joseph Campbell says "the power of myth".

john: not your problem.... But you apparently didn't read my posts very carefully. I take no position on metaphysical absolutes. I lean towards non-belief, but would never be so intellectually arrogant as to claim I know for certain I am right. I am amused by Christians who claim to be deeply humble, but then swear they know they're right in their metaphysical beliefs. Since we seem to be on the subject of correlations, I assert that true humility correlates with a humble reluctance to claim metaphysical certainty! I would say my own hesitancy to declare adherence to any absolute is real humility. I am the true, way-faring non-Christian!

EEL you claim not to be intellectually arrogant to claim "I am right", but your posits reveal that you judge christians as being wrong or it is a myth. Your attack of my intelligence for my comments is proof enough of that (dang dude borders on arrogance). You seem "absolute" that christianity is a myth-seems intellectually dishonest to say otherwise. Doesn't seem a modest opinion. I don't think humility is judging the belief of others as wrong or is a myth-seems a basic lack of respect for the notion. In Christianity, humility is the belief that all are better than you are-not equal but better. Humility is to answer simply with yes and no, and have modest opinions and suggestions. That is a tough one. You wash the feet of a poor beggar not because of pity but because he is better than you and deserves better. All people of faith also have doubt-that is why it is called faith. Christians aren't supposed to be arrogant about their beliefs and salvation-Christ said so explicitly. You don't believe in metaphysical absolutes, but you do believe in physical absolutes, right?