Science isn't solid, either

  • Follow Letters

Jeff Miller (“Science is mankind’s savior,” Aug. 21) does believe he has a savior and it is science. I wonder if Miller knows how something is proved scientifically, because a number of scientific facts haven’t passed the hypothesis (best guess) stage. I don’t think science has yet to fully explain gravity, and as for humility (and truthfulness), Albert Einstein didn’t like the fact that the universe is expanding, so he used a “fudge factor” to accommodate the fact. He later recanted.

It’s true that all Christians need to study more, but there also are some pretty dumb skeptics and atheists who cherry-pick their responses. Evidence is very critical in any investigation, and eyewitness reports, historical and geographic accuracy and archeological discoveries strongly support the Bible. The point that several cultures reported on a great flood does not constitute plagiarism because of who wrote first, but it does indicate consensus.

Morality and ethics have been the study of greater minds than Miller’s or mine, and his statement that his morality comes from a very close circle of acquaintances is rather frightening – as Walter Lippman said: “Where all think alike, no one thinks very much.” How does Miller respond to individuals’ morals and ethics that conflict with – or just come from different sources than – his? Are they just medieval something-or-others?

Women did have significant roles in the Bible: in the Old (Hebrew) Testament, Deborah was a judge in Israel, and Esther saved her people from annihilation. In the New (Christian) Testament, Lydia of Thyatira was a businesswoman who had a house church. Non-Christian Pliny the Younger, governor of Bithynia, tortured two Christian women who were called deaconesses. The women were slaves, and that indicated their position in life had nothing to do with their status in the church.

Paul told husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave His life for it.

James Wertz

Evans

Comments (82) Add comment
ADVISORY: Users are solely responsible for opinions they post here and for following agreed-upon rules of civility. Posts and comments do not reflect the views of this site. Posts and comments are automatically checked for inappropriate language, but readers might find some comments offensive or inaccurate. If you believe a comment violates our rules, click the "Flag as offensive" link below the comment.
Bizkit
35576
Points
Bizkit 08/26/13 - 02:02 pm
3
3
Slavery is a choice of words

Slavery is a choice of words that has a different meaning to jews. Slavery was a part of jewish culture and law-and different laws for jewish vs non-jewish slaves. Paul often referred to himself as a slave of Christ. Christ didn't speak negatively about slavery just told slaves to be good slaves. Jews at the time of Christ were like slaves as they lived in a vassal state of Rome. Remember too that most cultures of the time treated women poorly-even in ancient Rome women were citizens but coudn't vote or hold political office. Course women didn't fair too well here either as they were the last to receive the right to vote. Still today many cultures still have patriarchs-probably most come think of it.

mrenee2003
2946
Points
mrenee2003 08/26/13 - 02:24 pm
3
1
Jimmymac

This country was not founded on Christian beliefs. It was, however, shaped by Christian moral truths. In addition, and most important, our founders created a nation that was hospitable to practitioners of other religions. There is no state religion and no one religion has a right to be promoted over another in a public institution, which is supported by tax payers of various faiths. You exaggerate when say mentioning God is considered a hate crime. It's only a hate crime when Christians (or anyone from any other religion) invokes their religious beliefs to subvert the rights of others in a public institution. No one is infringing on your right to pray or praise God or praise Jesus. If you want prayer in public institutions, it needs to be equal (do you want your kid's day interrupted for Salah?). Do you want your kids to be forced to read the Torah? It's best to keep religion out of the public schools and focus on reading, writing, and arithmetic.

“Yes, the long war on Christianity. I pray that one day we may live in an America where Christians can worship freely! In broad daylight! Openly wearing the symbols of their religion... perhaps around their necks? And maybe -- dare I dream it? -- maybe one day there can be an openly Christian President. Or, perhaps, 43 of them. Consecutively.”

― Jon Stewart

Humble Angela
41338
Points
Humble Angela 08/26/13 - 02:35 pm
3
3
So, mrenee2003, would you
Unpublished

So, mrenee2003, would you agree that unproven theories should not be taught in public schools and presented as if they are proven facts?

Darby
29310
Points
Darby 08/26/13 - 02:42 pm
3
3
"Research with fruit flies is incredibly useful."

If true, then there should be no need for government funding. If it's all that useful, then investors will fight over the opportunity to fund it.

If not, then maybe it's not all that "useful".

................................................................................

There is that which is necessary and that which is nice to have. Money is short and so we need to learn to know the difference and act accordingly.

InChristLove
22485
Points
InChristLove 08/26/13 - 02:46 pm
3
3
WBC, maybe you need to go

WBC, maybe you need to go back to the drawing board and do some more studying. This passage from an article I found informative, states it best how Paul referred to women and how they are to be treated by their husbands. You so enjoy the word "slave" but the greek word refers to the “marriage bond”, and not to any “bond of slavery”. Paul used the verbs deô and douloô which mean "bound" and the words despotês and kurios and their feminine forms despotis and kuria which means master or lord. In Greek culture the “woman of the house” was called despotis or despoina, while her husband in his role as the “man of the house” was called despotês. The wife was called kuria, and the husband kurios.

In a culture where wives were considered the property of their husbands, Paul commands Christian husbands to submit to their wives by loving them as Christ loved the church and to fulfill his God-given responsibility to protect, provide for, and lead the family in a godly manner. How did Christ love the church? With agape love—the Greek word for spiritual love—which He modeled by giving His life for the church. It is this agape love that transforms worldly ideas of submission from dominance and subservience to those of humility and service.

In writing to the Corinthian church, Paul penned a divinely inspired essay on this agape love with which husbands are commanded to love their wives: “Love is patient and kind, love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. Love does not demand its own way. Love is not irritable, and it keeps no record of when it has been wronged. It is never glad about injustice….Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. Love will last forever….” (I Cor. 13:4-8a, New Living Bible). Such agape love requires the husband always to put his wife’s needs above his own and to give himself in self-sacrificial service to her.

Sure doesn't sound like "slavery" to me.

Bizkit
35576
Points
Bizkit 08/26/13 - 02:41 pm
3
2
Yeah they do a terrible job

Yeah they do a terrible job with the three R's so I'd hate to see what they would do with religions in pubic schools. Yikes. I think religions are just as safe as guns and abortion are in America as all are protected by the constitution-so we all know there isn't any attempts to undermine any of these protected rights. We have the right to religion, right to arms, and right of privacy. Well privacy is a word that will likely become extinct.

InChristLove
22485
Points
InChristLove 08/26/13 - 02:47 pm
2
2
My faithful TD......you never

My faithful TD......you never fail me

WalterBradfordCannon
1497
Points
WalterBradfordCannon 08/26/13 - 04:04 pm
2
1
@InChristLove, perhaps you

@InChristLove, perhaps you can shed light on this. My readings of Paul's writings (which are divine as they are scripture) say that women are to be submissive servants of their husbands, as the Southern Baptist Convention also claims. Personally, I feel that whereas this may have been appropriate 2000 years ago, today women deserve a lot better. Many Christian denominations reject literal readings of the Bible on this point (whereas they were appropriate 2000 years ago, times have changed). Women are also called upon to be silent in church, and to receive teachings from their husbands at home. There is no place in the Bible whatsoever that allows for the converse.
---------------------------------------------------------------

"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."

"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."

"Now I permit a woman neither to teach nor exercise authority over a man, but let her be in quietness. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived [when he sinned]; but the woman, having [first] been thoroughly deceived, became [involved] in the transgression [of Adam], and she will be saved by the Child-bearing [i.e., the bearing of Jesus Christ], if they abide in faith, and love and sanctification with self-restraint."

"the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church"

SBC: "A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ..."

burninater
9941
Points
burninater 08/26/13 - 04:22 pm
4
1
"So, mrenee2003, would you

"So, mrenee2003, would you agree that unproven theories should not be taught in public schools and presented as if they are proven facts?"
------
I was taught, in public school, what hypotheses, and theories, were. Understanding what a theory was, I understood that there was always a possibility that future evidence would cause a theory to be revised, or discarded. In addition, I was given numerous examples of both biologic and cosmologic theories that were discarded over time in the face of new evidence.

Presenting a theory that is most consonant with observational data is not presenting "proven fact". If you understand what a theory is, you understand that claiming that theories are presented as "proven fact" is a false claim. Perhaps an individual student does not understand what a "theory" is, but that is the fault of the student, not the theory.

Gravity is a theory, not a proven fact. Human reproduction via sexual intercourse is a theory, not a proven fact. In fact, there can be NO "proven fact", as there is always the possibility of future evidence falsifying prior theory. In light of that philosophical "truth", would I want my children taught theories in school, even if they were not "proven fact"? Well, if I didn't want them to be uselessly uneducated, then yes. I would.

And if a teacher gave the false impression that gravity, or human reproduction via sexual intercourse, were "proven facts", rather than potentially incorrect theories, I might wait until a student is of an age to appreciate the philosophical nuances of provability before I make claims that, because the theory of gravity or human reproduction are not "proven facts", they are completely dismissible. Given the overwhelming evidence in support of evolution, I would treat that theory in the same manner as theories of gravity, and of human reproduction.

burninater
9941
Points
burninater 08/26/13 - 04:18 pm
4
0
To clarify my statement that

To clarify my statement that theories cannot be presented as "proven fact": if a student -- or anyone, for that matter -- understands what a theory is, then they understand that any claim it is "proven fact" is false by definition.

It would be like saying "This letter 'A' I have drawn on the board, is the letter 'Z' ". If a student does not understand why "A" is not "Z", then they need a refresher on the alphabet. Likewise, if a student does not understand why theory is not "proven fact", they need a refresher on what theory is.

validPoint
982
Points
validPoint 08/26/13 - 04:38 pm
4
2
Not So

Anyone who would say that Christ advocated slavery has completely missed the total meaning of the scriptures. The Scriptures plainly states that Christ came that mankind may have life, and that more abundantly (The Gospel of John chapter 10 verse 10). Now, tell me what is abundant about slavery?. When the Apostle Paul speaks of "slave for the sake of the Gospel" He refers to obedience to Christ. To take this any other way would be to say that the scriptures contradict themselves, and that is far from the truth. Slavery exists because of the evil that prominently has taken a seat in the hearts of mankind. The scriptures plainly points that out.

It was a slave mentality that drowned the pharoah and his entire army in the red sea while being determined to keep God's people in bondage. Go to the book of beginnings, Genisis and continue to read you will find these things written there.

The only one that enslaves others is satan and his followers.

One more point, someone cited the passage where men are instructed to love their wives as Christ loved the church. This says to me that when men learn how Christ loved the chruch, they will be able to love their wives, because unknow instructions cannot be followed, and God is not unrighteous to require anything of His creation that He is not willing to provide help with.

validPoint
982
Points
validPoint 08/26/13 - 04:55 pm
3
1
@WalterBradfordCannon

I will not attempt to answer the question you posed to INCHRIST, because it is not directed to me.

However, I will say that it is most helpful to study Jewish customs and history in order to understand many things that are written in the Bible. The Bible contains enough for people to live right and be saved from satan's tricks. However, when it comes to getting an indept understanding of many of the passages, it is necessary to have some knowledge of customs during the periods the passages were written.

Bizkit
35576
Points
Bizkit 08/26/13 - 04:59 pm
3
1
Well there was an interesting

Well there was an interesting debate on the Wikipedia Evolution article on the "Evolution is a fact and theory statement -made by Gould" The problem with theories in biological science is they can't be proved like a math theorem but that doesn't negate the utility of such theories. Theories are broad and explanative in nature, usually supported by numerous studies and observations with nested hypotheses and theories within-and they give rise to new ideas and hypotheses. You can quickly disprove a hypothesis but theories are too broad to be dismissed easily. Theories aren't facts but they can be used like a fact to make predictions about the cosmos, atomic particles, black holes, or build nuclear reactors, build flying machines, identify and treat diseases, etc. A theory isn't "just a theory" but represents a huge body of knowledge and is often foundational-such as evolution has hundreds of nested theories and hypotheses and it continues to grow. Nothing in biology or medicine makes any sense except in light of evolution-so I can study a chick embryo to gather info about human development or use a dog to study cardiovascular disease. Zebrafish is now one of the most used vertebrate models to study human disease. Epigenetic changes are changes on gene function from environmental influences-and this was not considered evolution because it wasn't thought heritable. Lamarck proposed a similar idea but lost out to Darwin. But it turns out epigenetic changes can be for several generations and now these new ideas that were outside evolution are now being embraced as part of evolution and is called neoLamarckism as a nod to Lamarck-who was not completely off base.

mrenee2003
2946
Points
mrenee2003 08/26/13 - 09:43 pm
2
3
Change

Have to change my comment after reading Burn's second post. Theories can be presented as facts, depending on the theory.

mrenee2003
2946
Points
mrenee2003 08/26/13 - 05:39 pm
3
2
Darby

A simple Google search would reveal to you that millions and millions of dollars have been spent by pharma and other private industry on fruit fly research.

Bizkit
35576
Points
Bizkit 08/26/13 - 06:08 pm
3
1
Zebrafish is the hot

Zebrafish is the hot vertebrate model-tuberculosis, cancer, bone disease, skin diseases, hearing regeneration, heart regeneration, vision, etc, etc, etc, etc. They are a great model because you can genetically manipulate, their easy to maintain and take up a small space, and they reproduce rapidly.

t3bledsoe
14291
Points
t3bledsoe 08/26/13 - 06:26 pm
2
2
Burninator @ 5:22

"Gravity is a theory, not a proven fact. Human reproduction via sexual intercourse is a theory, not a proven fact"

ARE YOU absolutely sure that gravity and reproduction ARE THEORIES ?? I mean, I am not a genious ( ask HA ) but I am pretty sure these "THEORIES" are proven facts !

t3bledsoe
14291
Points
t3bledsoe 08/26/13 - 06:30 pm
1
2
Bizkit @ 7:08

"They are a great model because you can genetically manipulate, their easy to maintain and take up a small space, and they reproduce rapidly"

These are always paramount in dealing with "lab rats". LOL

t3bledsoe
14291
Points
t3bledsoe 08/26/13 - 06:37 pm
3
2
mrenee2003 @ 6:37

"Thank you for explaining the definition of theory to HA."

SOOO, tell us how you really feel about HA.

Humble Angela
41338
Points
Humble Angela 08/26/13 - 06:39 pm
2
3
I KNOW the definition of
Unpublished

I KNOW the definition of theory. Also I made no indication that I DON'T know the definition....It appears someone else here does not. If something is proven as fact, it is no longer a theory, so no, these "THEORIES" are NOT proven facts! (still no space required before the punctuation.)

Humble Angela
41338
Points
Humble Angela 08/26/13 - 06:46 pm
1
3
"To clarify my statement that
Unpublished

"To clarify my statement that theories cannot be presented as "proven fact": if a student -- or anyone, for that matter -- understands what a theory is, then they understand that any claim it is "proven fact" is false by definition."

As you can see from the above postings, that there are students that make it through the system without knowing the difference.

validPoint
982
Points
validPoint 08/26/13 - 07:23 pm
3
1
Spot On

Burnanitor, your explanation of "theory" is just as I learned it to be years ago as a university student. Theories were presented to be an unproven hypothesis. However, "Gravity" was presented to be a proven fact. Perhaps, it was because the definition given for the word "Fact". When it came to scientific fact, anything that could be continuously repeatable through hypothetical manipulation is construed as being "scientific fact". There was other criterion. However, to be repeatable through succession was the most qualifying criteria.

We also found that is why the scientific world refused to accept miracles as being scientific fact because many of the happenings are not repeatable in succession.

The one drawback I see in settling for "Facts" is the reality that "Facts" can be manipulated depending upon the situation.

InChristLove
22485
Points
InChristLove 08/26/13 - 07:25 pm
2
2
WBC, I did some research and

WBC, I did some research and my first response was to type this long explanation on the biblical meaning of submissive and how you have missed the meaning of the scripture on husbands/wifes/submission, but realized it would be fruital. If I had even a remote idea that you were serious in seeking answers I would spend hours in discussion with you on this subject but from past experience I know this is not the case. People who are not interested in hearing what God has to say aren't likely to do any research or studying on the Word. Every amount of explanation would be like leaves flying in the wind on a Fall afternoon. Nonbelievers can copy and paste scripture but the meaning is clueless (although unbelievers insist they see if perfectly) because the desire to understand it is not truly there. It is nothing but a game to you.

“Submission” does not mean domination!
“Submission” does not mean discrimination
“Submission” does not mean superiority

Biblical submission is God's Leadership and the highest compliment of obedience for a Christian.

Biblical submission is "God's" Leadership.

Humble Angela
41338
Points
Humble Angela 08/26/13 - 07:30 pm
1
3
ICL, you are absolutely
Unpublished

ICL, you are absolutely correct. What I have observed on this and other forums, is that there are a great number of people who feign interest in discussing religion, but in fact, only quote scriptures in an attempt to make a "gottcha" statement.

InChristLove
22485
Points
InChristLove 08/26/13 - 07:57 pm
2
2
Very true HA.

Very true HA.

validPoint
982
Points
validPoint 08/26/13 - 08:12 pm
3
1
So Correct

HA, I can identify with your last comment. There actually was a time before I learned better, that i actually tried to "trip the Bible up". It feels good to be free from that because I have tried the word for myself, and find no errors in it. To me not only is it true, but it has served to be healing and life as well.

deestafford
31943
Points
deestafford 08/26/13 - 08:15 pm
1
2
t3bledsoe in reference to your carbon 14 and the Shroud.

You are correct as far as you go; however, you do not go far enough. The Shroud was repaired about the time the cloth on the sample showing the C14 to be 600 years or so. The sample taken was mistakenly taken from the repaired site and not from the original. Therefore, try as they might scientists have been unable to show any evidence to disprove this is the burial shroud of Christ.

Bizkit
35576
Points
Bizkit 08/26/13 - 08:36 pm
1
1
It's gravitation actually not

It's gravitation actually not gravity so the theory of gravitation. Gravity is a fact with Newtonian (mass attraction) and Einsteinian (bend in space-time) theories of gravitation to explain how it supposedly works. Like light has a dual nature acting like a particle and a wave. Evolution theory is unusual in theories in that it is inferred from a number of observations-animals produce more offspring that can survive, limited resources, all life sexual or asexual reproducing spontaneously display diversity in some traits, and nature can select on traits that have a reproductive or survival advantage to produce adaptations and explains speciation. That's it-evolution describes how life has formed adaptations-like seeds, flight, vision, smell, etc. and how it is possible for a species to form (allopatrically or symmetrically). It has nothing to do with the origin of life and basically treats it as a black box that a final gene pool or organism(s) called the LUCA finally showed up on earth and from this seed all life has emerged to form the tree of life. This organisms is hypothesized to be complex and more like an animal cell and not primitive like a bacteria-so likely bacteria actually evolved as simpler organisms through gene loss. Also virus gene relics constitute 8-10% of most animal genomes and bacteria have evolved mechanisms to deal with viruses-although virus kill off half of all marine bacteria each day and are important in this balance. Our immune system is believed to have evolved from the influence of virus gene relics. What life that gave rise to the LUCA is believed to be just one branch of extant life forms. Abiogenesis and Panspermia are published ideas dealing with the origin of life by biologist and astrobiologist, but it has nothing to do with evolution.

mrenee2003
2946
Points
mrenee2003 08/26/13 - 09:34 pm
1
0
Wrong!

"If something is proven as fact, it is no longer a theory" is not correct. From the National Academy of Sciences: "The formal scientific definition of theory is quite different from the everyday meaning of the word. It refers to a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence." We know for a fact that humans have cells but students are still taught cell theory and it's taught as fact. They are also taught heliocentric theory (the fact that the Earth does not revolve around the Sun). I am only aware of one unproven theory that is taught as fact and that's creationism.

faithson
5527
Points
faithson 08/26/13 - 10:01 pm
1
0
universe respiration

'Through almost endless cycles of gains and losses, adjustments and readjustments, all living organisms swing back and forth from age to age. Those that attain cosmic unity persist, while those that fall short of this goal cease to exist.' ub

Back to Top

Top headlines

Mayor's race historic, controversial

Hardie Davis is still waiting to take office after winning a mayoral race that featured no white candidates and saw one of his opponents drop out the day before the election.
Search Augusta jobs