Can both stand ground?

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This letter is to all the legal eagles in our area in regard to the Stand Your Ground Law.

When the Trayvon Martin case first came to light, I had thought that both Martin and Neighborhood Watch captain George Zimmerman could use the Stand Your Ground Law, as it
applied to both.

However during the trial I believed Zimmerman would be found guilty, as he was the stalker giving Martin the right to punch his lights out.

Was Martin given the right to protect himself under the law?

Michael Ferguson

Augusta

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myfather15
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myfather15 07/21/13 - 09:18 pm
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"Was Martin given the right

"Was Martin given the right to protect himself under the law?"

Protect himself from what, exactly? A guy simply following and observing him? So now a person has the right to use FORCE and cause PHYSICAL HARM to a person who has presented no actual threat?

Once again; I will ask the question NONE Of the TM supporters have answered!! Is a Private Investigator "Stalking" me when my wife hires him to follow me, to see if I'm cheating on her?? PLEASE ANSWER!!

If so, then do you believe I should be able to legally assault the PI?

validPoint
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validPoint 07/21/13 - 09:18 pm
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C'mon Riverman1

You know there is a difference between following someone around in a store and following someone with a flashlight and a loaded gun that is in a "ready to fire " position.

Regardless to how much it is tampered with, Truth will always be Truth.

Riverman1
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Riverman1 07/21/13 - 09:32 pm
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Bill of Rights

Valid Point, you mean your assertion that Zimmerman should have been forced to testify? There's something called the Bill of Rights. That's why a defendant doesn't have to testify. That's the same Bill of Rights that gives us the right to bear arms.

mrenee2003
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mrenee2003 07/21/13 - 09:23 pm
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RMSHEFF

As much as it pains me, yes, the jury did make the right decision based on the law and their instructions. The issue is the law and the instructions to the jury. The prosecution did a terrible job. There was so much they could have brought up and didn't. Let's be clear here, GZ was given a verdict of "Not Guilty." He's not innocent, a boy is dead, and his mother grieves.

validPoint
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validPoint 07/21/13 - 09:25 pm
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Only Supporting Personal Conviction

Well, I will not be able to respond to any question that is addressed to those who are in support of a specific individual. This is so because I only support my convictions and the things I believe to be right. Name, Title, Gender, Color or Individual has nothing to do with it.

Riverman1
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Riverman1 07/21/13 - 09:35 pm
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Neighborhood Watch is an Honorable Task

Well, if we only want to be philosophical and give up on the facts, here’s another point. Being a neighborhood watchperson in a place like that where crime is prevalent was a noble undertaking. It’s one thing to be a neighborhood watchperson in Westlake, quite another in an integrated neighborhood of apartments and townhouses where crime happens. Zimmerman took on this task along with others. The blacks, whites and Hispanics appreciated Zimmerman’s efforts to prevent crime in their community.

mrenee2003
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mrenee2003 07/21/13 - 09:38 pm
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Myfather15

You are missing a major point (at least one I have been trying to make directly and indirectly). The issue just is not about stalking, following, lurking, whatever. It's about who instigated the fight and no one but TM and GZ knows the answer to that. Both were violent men with a history of substance abuse/use. One of them had a gun and the other didn't. GZ's story is highly suspect on a number of levels. A lot of people on this forum believe that TM was the instigator -- there is no evidence of that other than GZ's word and like I have said numerous times, he's a liar. I find it very hard to believe that if he was being beaten as severely as you all so vehemently believe, that he would have been able to reach around his back to his internal holster, pull it out, aim, and shoot. That I do not believe at all. No one, not even us liberals, believes it is wrong to defend yourself. It's ridiculous to suggest it. In fact, the TM supporters do believe in the right to defense, which is why I feel he was justified to stand his ground.

Little Lamb
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Little Lamb 07/21/13 - 09:35 pm
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From the previous page . . .

ValidPoint made this comment:

Another thing I fail to understand is how can any law be applied to any situation when the only live person involved did not take the stand to give account under oath, and the record that was presented is very flawed.

Riverman1 responded well, but may I butt in and amplify?

The Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution provides the following protections to individuals:

No person shall . . . be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself. . . .

Sovereign nations around the globe may require accused criminals to testify; but in the United States of America, you do not have to testify in court. It is not up to the accused to prove their innocence. It is up to the government to prove guilt. The prosecution in Florida could not prove the guilt of Zimmerman because the government had no evidence, no proof.

Now, Al Sharpton wants the government to harass him to death by a thousand cuts.

corgimom
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corgimom 07/21/13 - 09:35 pm
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"Another thing I fail to

"Another thing I fail to understand is how can any law be applied to any situation when the only live person involved did not take the stand to give account under oath"

Because nobody ever has to take the stand and testify. It is up to the State to prove their case. Everybody has the 5th Amendment right not to incriminate themselves.

Some people are so ignorant of how the American justice system works, but have no problem offering their opinions.

For gosh sakes, do you think that every murder takes place in front of a dozen witnesses?

validPoint
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validPoint 07/21/13 - 09:36 pm
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Did not say That

Riverman 1

I did not say that ZG should have been forced to testify. I only say he did not testify, he did not, and the records of the statements he gave are contridictory. ... that bit about while being straddled lying on the ground and removing a gun from his back with a hand that is not even dominant in the manner he described even goes against the Laws of Physics, it is simply impossible... Correct me if I am wrong...

Riverman1
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Riverman1 07/21/13 - 09:42 pm
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Facts

"I find it very hard to believe that if he was being beaten as severely as you all so vehemently believe, that he would have been able to reach around his back to his internal holster, pull it out, aim, and shoot. That I do not believe at all. "

Well, what do you believe? The PROSECUTION witness said he saw M on top of Z "grounding and pounding him." The forensic evidence said the gun was against the shirt, but several inches from the body when it was fired consistent with M leaning over Z.

Then there is the logic question. If Z had pulled his gun before the attack wouldn't he have shot from a further distance as M attacked? How did the witness then see the fight before the gunshot? Would M even attack a man holding a gun? See, none of that makes sense.

validPoint
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validPoint 07/21/13 - 09:54 pm
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Jumping The Gun

There sure is a lot of "jumping the gun" here. Coringmom, I have no dooubt that some people are so ignorant of how the justice system works. I believe it would show intelligence to really understand a statement before attempting to address it.

Also, Little Lamb no where have I said a person is required to testify against himself. What I said is what I said. It is in bold print for anyone to read. Your response to my comment does not tell me you understand.

Besides, it is my bedtime. Everyone have a great night.

myfather15
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myfather15 07/21/13 - 09:45 pm
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mrenee

Then maybe the question about the PI isn't directed at you, but those like t3bledsoe and others who are constantly saying Zimmerman "Stalked" Martin.

Little Lamb
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Little Lamb 07/21/13 - 09:46 pm
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Emotions

Emotions run strong in this story. Mrenee posted:

. . . the Trayvon Martin supporters do believe in the right to defense, which is why I feel that his actions were justified to stand his ground. . . .

Trayvon Martin would have been justified to stand his ground if he had confronted George Zimmerman and said something like, “I don't appreciate your following me, brother. Now back off and leave me alone.” But in the split second he slugged George Zimmerman in the face, Martin lost his immunity under the Florida "stand your ground" law. That is because stand your ground immunity does not afford to persons who are engaging in unlawful activity. Trayvon Martin committed assault against George Zimmerman. Travon Martin, at that very time, could not claim self defense; nor could he invoke immunity under "stand your ground."

No emotion. Just facts.

myfather15
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myfather15 07/21/13 - 09:48 pm
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mrenee

But it's also amazing how YOUR comment, contradicts itself.

You said "It's about who instigated the fight and no one but TM and GZ knows the answer to that."

Then, in the very same comment say: "In fact, the TM supporters do believe in the right to defense, which is why I feel he was justified to stand his ground."

Stand his ground from what? If you don't know who instigated the physical altercation? By saying Martin had the right to stand his ground, you are implying that he was being assaulted, unless you believe he has the right to stand his ground and use FORCE against someone who is following him, only!!

KSL
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KSL 07/21/13 - 09:51 pm
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That is absolutely right

I served on a jury in a criminal case. We found the accused innocent for that exact reason. He was guilty as h**ll and we all 12 knew it. But the rules of law were followed. Thank goodness. Oh, he was a young black guy.

And somebody on the comments section stated that the jury is not picked from persons left is not true unless he is saying pre-investigations go on before we as potential jourors are investigated without our knowledge prior to potential duty. I guess that happens.

myfather15
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myfather15 07/21/13 - 09:55 pm
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mrenee

You also state " I find it very hard to believe that if he was being beaten as severely as you all so vehemently believe, that he would have been able to reach around his back to his internal holster, pull it out, aim, and shoot."

Well, since the doctor said Zimmerman had a "Closed fracture" in his nose, I would believe he was beaten pretty good!!

And, it's pretty clear you have no training in firearms and not very much experience with physical altercations. After 16 years, I can say I've been in uncountable physical altercations and thousands of hours of firearms training. Yes, it is quite possible to reach for and remove your firearm during a physical altercation. Matter of fact, we do specific training for this very scenario. We also do firearms retention training which used to be called "Redman" training. Look it up on youtube, there use to be some very interesting videos of law enforcement officers going through "Redman" training.

Riverman1
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Riverman1 07/21/13 - 09:56 pm
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Same Here As On Hannity

Yeah, I'm watching Hannity with a discussion on the same issue. It's the same pattern on the show and here. Blacks are hurt because of the death of Martin, but they can't present any evidence to dispute the facts of the trial or the FBI investigation of Zimmerman that didn't find him to be a racist. I do understand the pain. Martin may have straightened himself out one day and became a fine man. Sadly, that won't happen, but don't try to put someone in jail for defending himself.

Riverman1
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Riverman1 07/21/13 - 09:57 pm
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Oh, also rounds are kept

Oh, also rounds are kept chambered in guns by most people I know. You can still have the safety on.

myfather15
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myfather15 07/21/13 - 10:04 pm
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Riverman

ANYONE who carries a firearm for personal safety, especially when out and about town, should have one in the chamber!! But, as you stated, the safety should ALWAYS be on!! I've carried a firearm on and off duty for over 16 years and I've NEVER had an accidental discharge. It's about personal responsibility!!

mrenee2003
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mrenee2003 07/21/13 - 10:19 pm
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Facts

The testimony from the witnesses were inconsistent. It was my u/s that two said TM was on top of GZ and two that said GZ was on top of TM. Furthermore, Serino, the lead investigator on the case, called the death of Martin avoidable and recommended manslaughter charges against Zimmerman, but his recommendation was rejected. What do I believe? I believe that GZ profiled that kid and followed him. I believe that TM was afraid and didn't want to lead a crazy person back to his father's fiancée's house where he knew a 12 year old was home alone. I believe GZ lied when he said he only got out of his car to check the street name TM was on. C'mon. He's a neighborhood watch volunteer in a neighborhood with only three streets and he had to get out of his car to find out the name of the street he was on? He's a liar. When you are scared, your body goes into fight or flight. According to the 911 transcripts, that's what TM did, GZ said he was running. I believe that GZ continued to follow him and TM decided at that point to defend himself and ask why GZ was following him. GZ was probably waving his gun around and because he's fat and soft, TM was able to overtake him for a bit until GZ managed to pull the trigger. Who knows? It's all speculation. But the facts are also pretty clear that GZ is not innocent.

KSL
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KSL 07/21/13 - 10:17 pm
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mrenee

Define instigator. Wandering about in a hoodie at night. Granted, not against the law, but it surely does suggest you may be up to no good, if you are wandering around in a neighborhood that has suffered burlaries. Even a 17 year old raised right should have common sense.

But we now know the 17 year old Trayvon was not the cute little 12 year old pictured in the media pictures that got the comments from the White House.

Oh and just the other day Obama changed his testimonial to me 35 years ago.I waiting for clarication from him, which is it?

Has Obama ever walked around in a hoodie in neighborhoods who have suffered from criminal activities?

RMSHEFF
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RMSHEFF 07/21/13 - 10:24 pm
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Lessons to be learned

I think the lesson that can be learned here by all is "do not be the one to start a physical altercation." No matter what someone says or does don't start a fight. Things can go bad very quickly. You never know what weapon someone may have. My guess is that Martin started the fight and had no idea Zimmerman was packing heat. I don't think Zimmerman had any desire or intension of using his weapon when he was tracking Martins movements. My guess he wanted the police to be the one to find and confront Martin.

KSL
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KSL 07/21/13 - 10:26 pm
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Our current pres

Is nowhere near smart. He is an example of affirmitave action at it's best.

mrenee2003
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mrenee2003 07/21/13 - 10:31 pm
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KSL

Wow! You and GZ have a lot in common it seems. Profiling. So, wearing a hoodie in the rain after you went to the store at 7:00 P.M. in the evening is up to no good? I have already commented that TM was troubled. But so was GZ.

KSL
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KSL 07/21/13 - 10:34 pm
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Or else, open up his closed

Or else, open up his closed files. Why are they sealed. The most secretive pres in our country's history. What does he need to hide? He is in his second term. He will be done nezt election.

Little Lamb
43944
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Little Lamb 07/21/13 - 10:34 pm
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Fight or Flight

Mrenee posted:

When you are scared, your body goes into fight or flight. According to the 911 transcripts, that's what TM did, GZ said he was running. I believe that GZ continued to follow him and TM decided at that point to defend himself and ask why GZ was following him. GZ was probably waving his gun around and because he's fat and soft, TM was able to overtake him until he could manage to pull the trigger. Who knows?

Who knows, indeed? So to you, GZ was probably waving his gun around? If the jury has to ask themselves, “Who knows?” then they are obligated by law to acquit. That's what's called reasonable doubt.

KSL
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KSL 07/21/13 - 10:51 pm
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Yes,I do. 84 degrees , I do

Yes,I do. 84 degrees , I do not even wear a raincoat in the rain. I actually can not imagine wearing a hoodie in the rain .It would get wet.

By the way. Why do so many young blacks wear hoodies? The young blacks I grew up with in the 60's would not have done.

itsanotherday1
40359
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itsanotherday1 07/21/13 - 10:57 pm
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Mrenee

Fact: Martin had gunshot residue on his shirt and none on his skin. Gunshot forensics experts concluded that he was shot from four inches away; which clearly points to his shirt hanging away from his body. That would only happen if he was hovering over the shooter, a scenario consistent with GZ's description of the events. Why do you all keep ignoring the evidence?

Not to mention; GZ had called the police a number of times on suspicious people. If he was this aggressive wannabe, why hadn't he confronted any of them? Why Martin? Why this time? It makes no sense at all.

mrenee2003
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mrenee2003 07/21/13 - 11:09 pm
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Little Lamb

Yeah, I got that point. If you read my earlier comment, I said the jury made the right decision based on the information that they had and the instructions that they were given. I have no idea what happened. I acknowledged that. I also acknowledged that Trayvon Martin had issues (violence, substance abuse). I am disturbed, however, at some of the comments on this forum and it's clear to me it's definitely not a post-racial society. If you are Black, don't wear a hoodie, don't walk in the rain, don't walk outside after the sun sets, don't give the impression of meandering when you walk, don't get mad or upset if someone is following you, keep your wits about you even if you are scared, and best of all, if someone is following you, lead them back to your house. The willingness to so readily believe GZ's version of events is scary, indeed.

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