"Christian nation' not free

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Yes, Hobby Lobby, we know America was founded by Christians – bigoted, white, slave-owning, Protestant Christians. But they planted a seed of freedom that was intended to prevent just such a tyranny as the national arts and crafts retailer proposes in its envisioned “Christian nation.”

From the early 1800s to the 1960s, the Catholics and Baptists fought hard for separation of church and state because schools were teaching Anglican Protestant doctrine. How can our fellow citizens – Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs, Hindus and the rising number of nonbelievers – take what Hobby Lobby proposes as anything but a demotion to second-class citizenship? Morality is the breadth and degree of the compassion, fairness, justice, love and understanding we extend to others.

I choose to embrace all Americans and share this country with everyone, be they Christian, Jew, Muslim, agnostic, gay or straight, male or female, black or white, red or blue. Mixing religion and government makes for both bad religion and bad government.

America is not going to hell in a hand-basket. It is getting better, especially since judicial consolidation in the ’60s of equal rights, women’s rights, and separation of church and state. We value individual freedoms over imposing our beliefs upon others. Minorities can now participate in politics. We don’t lynch people anymore, or beat them up or deny them voting rights because they are different. We expose the abuses of our government, and we speak out against the tyranny of the self-proclaimed righteous, even those who have the money to place full-page ads in newspapers.

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deestafford
24066
Points
deestafford 07/09/13 - 11:56 pm
16
8
I don't know when in the world I have read such horse

squeeze as this letter. This is a classic example of someone who has no respect for the traditional values that made this country great. Someone who has no foundation of absolute values and beliefs. It's sort of the "feel good, everybody's values and beliefs are just as good as anyone else's".

A person with this attitude has no concept of American Exceptionalism or why this country was founded as it was when none have ever been like it before or since.

If America ever is destroyed and falls it will be because of attitude and beliefs such as this letter writer.

Bodhisattva
5647
Points
Bodhisattva 07/10/13 - 05:29 am
9
12
Traditional values and

Traditional values and beliefs? That would be values and beliefs that have been handed down through generations, correct? Since the US has been a melting pot of many cultures and many religions all would be considered traditional would they not? The problem rises when one group determines its values and beliefs are superior and should be codified as the law of the land. Of course the founding fathers forbade this in the Constitution but that hasn't stopped people from trying. They've tried many tricks and gimmicks, the latest being trying to call a business and a corporation a "person" and for it to have the same rights as an individual. If it's the same as the person, subject to the same rights and privileges and the responsibilities and liabilities as an individual, why form a corporation in the first place? There's the rub, they only want the right, not the responsibilities. If they choose to be a person, figure the average age of death in the country, and all corporations are automatically dissolved after that date. They'll have a beginning and an end, just like a person. A better choice would be to dissolve all corporations immediately. The people involved will all be treated as individuals tax wise and legally. If they want to be people, get rid of all the legal mumbo jumbo and just be people. They'll all have individual rights and they'll all have individual responsibilities.

Radwaste
400
Points
Radwaste 07/10/13 - 06:08 am
12
8
Traditional?

Perhaps the reader should think about why the USA proceeded as it did through the years.
We are not Portuguese Catholics - we are not Brazil. We are not Spanish Catholics - we are not Mexico. We are not French Catholics - we are not Quebec.
We are British Protestants by progression, and with that lineage came the sense of DUTY to one's country. The shift in power from the people (wishing to be rid of that duty) to the government (populated by persons who want that power) is responsible for a great deal of what is wrong today.
Now, if you hate success, you'll probably condemn the British - despite there being a pretty good correlation between their occupation of a country and its eventual success.
But don't miss that the duty of a citizen is an idea largely lost on the American to whom Independence Day is five minutes of pious weeping and 23 hours, 55 minutes of beer and burgers.

---

In other news: Bod, a corporation is a fictional entity like a governmental one, operating by the rule of law for the state in which it is incorporated. Such an entity works exactly like a person in hundreds of ways.
You really shouldn't let wealth envy turn your brain off when Mitt Romney says something about business. He has millions to show that, yes, he knows what a business is - other than a cash cow for welfare programs, to be coerced under the color of law by grasping politicians.

ymnbde
9228
Points
ymnbde 07/10/13 - 06:08 am
14
6
lovin' those labels

this writer seems to be semantically diverse
which is easy to do when people are just words
but when diversity is actually put into practice with real people
he seems to choose some people over others
Hobby Lobby is trying to actually practice separation of church and state
by preventing the state from forcing them to do things against their religion
they can have their Christianity, they just can't practice it?
but hey, at least he admits he quit lynching people...

myfather15
50376
Points
myfather15 07/10/13 - 07:09 am
12
8
I just want an explanation on

I just want an explanation on how, holding ones beliefs, is demoting someone else to "second-class citizenry"!!

"We don’t lynch people anymore, or beat them up or deny them voting rights because they are different."

Who is "We"? I've never lynched anyone, beat them up or denied anyone their rights and I don't know a single person who ever has!!

Again; how is the declaration that this is a Christian Nation, doing any of the above? This Nation was founded on Judeo-Christian philosophy and that is a fact!! Now, misguided PEOPLE have commited atrocities in the past, using the disguise of Christianity; just as radical muslims terrorists are doing today!! But Our Father, never said to do such things!! The Bible doesn't tell us to do such things!! As a matter of FACT, Matt 13 tells us to leave those who aren't Christian alone, don't bother them and leave it up to God to sort them out!! They can live peaceably however they choose during this life. They don't answer to US, but to Him and Him only!!

But that also doesn't mean we lower the standards of this Country to accept ANY lifestyle anyone decides to live!!

Gary Ross
3346
Points
Gary Ross 07/10/13 - 07:42 am
9
5
What planet did you come from?

Sounds like the writer wants the best of both worlds. I hope he doesn't form an opinion anytime soon or both his worlds will come crashing down. How can a Christian be at peace with evil???

RMSHEFF
14217
Points
RMSHEFF 07/10/13 - 07:52 am
12
6
How does the writer conclude

How does the writer conclude that Hobby Lobby want to force its will of a Christian Nation on America He said " a tyranny as the national arts and crafts retailer proposes in its envisioned “Christian nation.” Hobby Lobby is only seeking "not to be forced to do something that violates there religious beliefs". Hobby Lobby is a private company owned by a person of faith. If you don't want to work or shop at hobby lobby you are free not to. This writers logic is so absurd, he envisions a government so powerful they could dictate everything a private company can and cannot do.

I would like to ask him one question....Should the government be able to force a owner of a business to open on Sunday, if he closes his business for reasons of faith like Chick fl a? If you apply the same reasoning you used with Hobby Lobby, your answer would have to be YES !

The most frightening part of this letter is that people like this are allowed to vote !

Bizkit
29374
Points
Bizkit 07/10/13 - 07:53 am
8
4
Seems Ole Joe is a little

Seems Ole Joe is a little frustrated and has a ramblin' pen hand. Funny too in his plea for tolerance seems to be intolerant. America is continuously evolving (not necessarily for the better or improving) and yes while founded by European they brought their religion. We have had numerous migrations here too so now we have all ethnicities and religions. I think the founders would be happy with that result that all peoples who have come can follow their faith-as they weren't supporting any particular faith just the freedom to pursue one. I think it is fine that people are Christians and I think it is fine that people are homosexual too but I just as soon people keep their beliefs and behaviors to themselves. I would never call America a "Christian nation" that is an insult to our Lord and Savior. America isn't a single person like a corporation too. Plenty of room for all beliefs. No more lynchings-only in a physical sense but we are all being lynched with no privacy and Big Brother Govt watchin' our every move.

Bodhisattva
5647
Points
Bodhisattva 07/10/13 - 07:54 am
5
10
I love the way those who

I love the way those who don't have an answer throw out the "wealth envy" card. I don't give a rat's rear end about David Green's billions. He can spend it, give it away, or flush it for all I care. It has nothing to do with money. He's trying to force his religious beliefs on others by claiming his corporation is his person. People incorporate their businesses for a number of reasons. If he wanted to run it as a personal business he shouldn't have incorporated. Hey, but then he loses the advantages on incorporation. You can bet your bottom dollar he'll scream all day long that his business isn't his person if you bring a lawsuit against his personal billions for a grievance against Hobby Lobby. He wants to cherry pick what rights and responsibilities corporations hold. In other words, all of the rights and none of the responsibilities. He's just another right wing fake christian that's on a power trip. If everything doesn't go his way he's offended because he's used to pushing people around and making people do everything his way or "no soup for you". You have to even think just like him or tough chips for your charity. "And Jesus said, "Answer these questions correctly and I will heal you."". At least he keeps a lot of Chinese manufacturers busy.

nofanofobama
6763
Points
nofanofobama 07/10/13 - 07:56 am
11
5
after calling christians

after calling christians bigoted and slave owners..and referring that to the owners of hobby lobby**for merely exercising their faith***our tolerant liberal clarifies that he embraces ALL and probably loves all...what a guy.

Bizkit
29374
Points
Bizkit 07/10/13 - 08:06 am
7
4
I guess the corporations are

I guess the corporations are like the Obama administration in cherry pickin' what part of Obamacare to implement, when to act like there is sequestration, and who should receive "green research" funding. Cause remember the US Govt must be like a corporation too and is a person-his name is Obama. hee,hee,hee.

RMSHEFF
14217
Points
RMSHEFF 07/10/13 - 08:09 am
6
6
Bod

He is claiming that his business is 'his business' and he can run it the way he sees fit. In a free country you don't have to work or shop there. Its about freedom...something you don't like to much !

nofanofobama
6763
Points
nofanofobama 07/10/13 - 08:18 am
11
5
bod....you got to be

bod....you got to be kidding....he's trying to force his religious belief on others because he doesnt believe in abortion..next YOU will complain about chick fa lay for being closed on sundays because an employee wants to work on sunday..your hatred of people of faith is tiring...i get you dont like us...

Bizkit
29374
Points
Bizkit 07/10/13 - 08:30 am
8
4
I know people like to bash

I know people like to bash Christians but what if the business were muslim or hindu and they were following their religious beliefs. I wonder if there would be the outrage. Seems manipulated-like the Martin-Zimmerman case-just think if Martin had killed Zimmerman we would have never heard about it.

nofanofobama
6763
Points
nofanofobama 07/10/13 - 08:32 am
7
6
bod**evidently you do care

bod**evidently you do care about how he spends his millions because you want the govt. to intervene on your behalf and force him to buy insurance that includes abortion that is against his beliefs..if someone wants the morning after pill..go buy it...but dont make me or so one else pay for it...

Fundamental_Arminian
1833
Points
Fundamental_Arminian 07/10/13 - 08:41 am
5
6
Hypocritical LTE

Unlike the letter-writer, I appreciate the full-page ad Hobby Lobby ran to show that our nation was founded on biblical principles. The ad had a lot of information that no doubt is downplayed or ignored by publishers of the history books used in our government schools.

Unlike the letter-writer, I don't think our nation is getting better as a whole. Granted, we've improved in regard to women's suffrage, equal treatment of minorities, and the elimination of slavery; but since 1973, American mothers have arranged for the murder of more than 50 million unborn children simply for being inconvenient. Hobby Lobby is to be commended for its anti-abortion fight. Besides, our nation's rate of illegitimacy and single-parent homes is rising.

The letter-writer says, "We value individual freedoms over imposing our beliefs upon others." He doesn't explain, though, how publishing a newspaper ad or handing out gospel tracks amounts to imposing a belief on anyone. Apparently he sees no imposition to the government's requirement that employers provide abortion coverage no matter what their religious beliefs are.

Bodhisattva
5647
Points
Bodhisattva 07/10/13 - 08:42 am
5
5
Since we're not a Christian

Since we're not a Christian nation, it shouldn't be assumed that fallacy good be forced on to anyone. We are a constitutional republic. Some are under the mistaken notion that we are a theocracy or that we have a state religion. Our founders were familiar with a state religion and made sure that, unless the Constitution was amended, we would never be burdened with one.

"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

" As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims)" Treaty of Tripoli

soldout
1280
Points
soldout 07/10/13 - 08:44 am
6
5
since when is gay a class of people

Our sins do not make us special. There are no gay people, just those who choose to do a gay sin. Otherwise there could be no x-gays. No one can find the gay gene and if there was one it would have to be considered a defect as it stops life on this earth if everyone had that defect. People thinking they are gay may be diet related. Some who thought they were gay have been energy medicine treated for the effects of certain foods and realized they weren't gay. All our life is a choice including our sins and the consequences of our sins is disease and death. The Word says we can choose life or death. Why struggle against the advice of the creator of the universe when you can have peace, joy and a home in heaven instead.

seenitB4
81891
Points
seenitB4 07/10/13 - 08:47 am
7
5
Lordy

How much longer can we stand as a nation....I wonder sometimes when I read ..........& bizkit I agree with this...
just think if Martin had killed Zimmerman we would have never heard about it.

Bizkit
29374
Points
Bizkit 07/10/13 - 08:51 am
7
4
Well we all dislike "cherry

Well we all dislike "cherry pickers" and I know we will agree that Obama's main job is to "execute the laws"(faithfully execute the laws) of our nation. If any offense is impeachable it should be failure to fulfill your duty and cherry pick which laws to enforce. Now Obama is cherry picking his own law which is unconstitutional and impeachment proceeding should proceed. Course this isn't his only offense. Strike three you're out.

CobaltGeorge
150918
Points
CobaltGeorge 07/10/13 - 09:10 am
6
4
Religion Is Not The Criminal,

the daily violation of the U.S. Constitution "IS".

nofanofobama
6763
Points
nofanofobama 07/10/13 - 09:13 am
7
3
the intent of the treaty of

the intent of the treaty of tripoli was to relieve the worry for the 2 parties that the treaty was between 2 countries not 2 religions...it was controversial at the time and i believe amended a few years later to remove the part about not founded on christian principles..but to deny the christian influence in the founding of our country is naive at best..and bod..no one i know thinks we are a theocracy or even a country with a state religion..if we were do you really think we would have all this tolerance for this immorality that our govt is pushing.

Bizkit
29374
Points
Bizkit 07/10/13 - 09:18 am
6
4
Of course there is a state

Of course there is a state religion-it's called atheism (SCOTUS ruled atheism is equivalent to a religion). The vacuum of faith leaves no other option. Just like darkness is just the absence of light. So we do have a theocracy of atheism-at least according to the SCOTUS. So we shouldn't allow atheism to have an undue presence in govt either=as that would be supporting a religion and ideology.

pearlthesquirrel
786
Points
pearlthesquirrel 07/10/13 - 09:28 am
1
1
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Unpublished

Great letter by Mr. Joe. I see the "evolution is just a theory" people are out in full force today. Peace and love, that's where it's at!

t3bledsoe
14223
Points
t3bledsoe 07/10/13 - 09:37 am
2
7
Quote from LTE

"I choose to embrace all Americans and share this country with everyone, be they Christian, Jew, Muslim, agnostic, gay or straight, male or female, black or white, red or blue. Mixing religion and government makes for both bad religion and bad government."

Regardless of Democrat, Republican, Tea Party, or religion, WE HAVE GOT to start living to this belief !!

t3bledsoe
14223
Points
t3bledsoe 07/10/13 - 09:41 am
3
7
Quote from LTE

"America is not going to hell in a hand-basket."

I believe this statement, HOWEVER, everyone knows that we have seen MUCH BETTER DAYS !!

t3bledsoe
14223
Points
t3bledsoe 07/10/13 - 09:46 am
4
5
Quote from LTE

"We value individual freedoms over imposing our beliefs upon others."

AGAIN, another true statement, AT LEAST it should be.

crkgrdn
2287
Points
crkgrdn 07/10/13 - 10:07 am
3
2
Do you truly believe this?

If you do truly believe this, then display the courage of your convictions and go to that place from which your family originated.

What a coward! How inauthentic.

DanK
779
Points
DanK 07/10/13 - 10:34 am
3
4
good policy applies to all

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that blood transfusions violate God's will. That's okay. If they are in a car accident, they don't have to accept a blood transfusion. However, if Bob is a Jehovah's Witness and he owns a company making widgets, does he have a right to deny his employees health coverage that includes blood transfusions by eliminating blood transfusions from the insurance policy? In other words, is Bob permitted to limit the health services available to others based on his personal religious beliefs?

If a person has a choice, and chooses not to receive blood transfusions, that is a choice the person makes based on their beliefs. If a person is denied choice, then the beliefs of another have been forced upon him.

The federal government has an obligation, to the best of its ability, to ensure that policy applies to all equally by enabling each individual to choose according to their beliefs. If the health policy assures that every person has a personal choice to receive a health service or not, it is fair policy for everyone.

Assuring that everyone has the opportunity to receive a health service does not require that they do so. They can still choose not to take advantage of that service, if it violates their personal belief.

Hobby Lobby is not a religious organization like a church. It is a company that sells craft stuff. The stuff is not of any particular religious significance. It's not anointed with holy water or kissed by saints or encrusted with religious iconography.

Moreover, the employees of Hobby Lobby are not all followers of the specific list of beliefs that the CEO adheres to. I would assume that most of them are Christians, but I would also bet that a proportion of those Christian employees use or approve the use of contraception.

Denying employees the right to choose contraceptive services that are available to the vast majority of Americans, just because the owner himself would not choose to make use of them, is no different from denying them the right to a transfusion in the event of an auto accident. It involves imposing his personal beliefs upon all employees, eliminating their right to choose based upon their own beliefs.

I have no problem with a religious organization like a church enforcing its interpretations of the Bible within its congregation, because they have all committed themselves to that church, those beliefs. That is different from a corporation that is not a religious organization forcing employees who do not necessarily accept the beliefs of the owner to give up their right to choose based on their own beliefs.

soapy_725
43557
Points
soapy_725 07/10/13 - 10:57 am
1
0
Doctors simply get a court order for JV's. JV's know it.
Unpublished

Doctors simply get a court order for JV's. JV's know it.

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