Liberals built freer world

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It has been a while since I have written a letter to the editor, but Ed Payne’s April 14 letter (“Progressivism is killing us all”) prompted a response. It is the latest, and not the most egregious, of many letters indicating that liberals/progressives (L/Ps) are destroying our country, leading us toward socialism, undermining our morals, etc.

Kathryn Schultz’s book Being Wrong indicates that facts seem to have little effect on conservative’s deep-seated beliefs, so this is probably an exercise in futility, but tilting at windmills has a long and noble history.

L/Ps invented and developed science on which Dr. Payne’s profession depends. Without it, he would still be using leeches. L/Ps are responsible for the development of democracy and capitalism that many letters to the editor accuse L/Ps of trying to destroy.

The list of accomplishments and developments of L/Ps is nearly endless: the Declaration of Independence; the Constitution and its Bill of Rights; abolition of slavery; right of all citizens older than 18 to vote; public education; public hospitals; trade unions; curbs on monopolies; the Red Cross; nursing as a profession; humane care for the mentally ill; pure food and drug laws; the 40-hour work week; equal rights for minorities and women; freedom of religion; clean rivers and lakes; the right to marry a person of a different race …

Conservatives opposed, worked against and ridiculed many of these when they were first proposed.

Conservatives do seem to make better generals; however, most of the greatest or most consequential presidents were liberals, and some of the others were equivocal.

To top it all off, the most liberal states (based on voting patterns) are wealthier than the most conservative states, and have to transfer tax dollars to support them.

It would be a much poorer and less free world without the dreaded L/Ps.

Andy C. Reese

Augusta

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Young Fred
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Young Fred 04/22/13 - 03:53 pm
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"That's the crux of the real

"That's the crux of the real debate. Increased heat in the earth system is accepted fact by almost every scientist collecting data. How that heat will manifest is the great unknown."

That increased heat is accepted by “almost” every scientist is damning evidence for sure. BTW, how much increased heat has happened in the last 15 years? And for the “few” that don't accept the “facts” what say they? “Facts” are a funny thing, bandied about like ping-pong balls.

For instance, take a scientist that's come to a different conclusion. His department is about to receive a sizeable grant from gubment. Just how long do you suppose he would have a stable position within the organization?

Now let's say he sticks by his guns, by his research. How many of his peers would stand by him knowing that their careers were on the line? It's nice to imagine scientist as noble beings, standing by their conclusions come thick or thin. But, they're just human. Human with all the biases we must contend with on a daily basis.

I don't know Burn, I've known people that have been watching the sky on a daily basis for 40 years. But you make a persuasive argument. Perhaps I should stock up on sun screen.

RMSHEFF
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RMSHEFF 04/22/13 - 04:08 pm
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Still reported that almost all scientist agree....

Since 1998, more than 31,000 American scientists from diverse climate-related disciplines, including more than 9,000 with Ph.D.s, have signed a public petition announcing their belief that “…there is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth’s atmosphere and disruption of the Earth’s climate.” Included are atmospheric physicists, botanists, geologists, oceanographers, and meteorologists.

So where did that famous “consensus” claim that “98% of all scientists believe in global warming” come from?

Young Fred
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Young Fred 04/22/13 - 04:12 pm
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"Yes HA, there are natural

"Yes HA, there are natural cycles as well."

Yes, there is that.

How old is the earth? What is the sample that's being compared? Mere decades compared to the life of earth? Are there not suppositions made concerning the earths median temperature?

As I understand it, the earth has gone through many cycles. There is no evidence, only supposition when it comes to global warming..at least that's how I interpret the data. Then again, I'm no scientist, just a peon.

If the original supposition is flawed, then all built upon it is flawed.

burninater
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burninater 04/22/13 - 04:37 pm
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YF, believe it or not, they

YF, believe it or not, they have 800,000(!) years of climate data from Antarctic ice cores. They can determine the atmospheric composition from trapped air bubbles, and the average temp by the ratio of H2O to heavy water (water that has heavier hydrogen molecules than regular water). The second part is pretty interesting -- heavy water takes the slightest bit more energy (more heat) to evaporate than regular water, so the ratio frozen in the ice cores gives you a proxy for heat in the system. That can then be correlated to the atmospheric gas mix at that time. And because the ice is from annual precipitation, it is actually often bedded as individual years.

http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/ice_core_co2.html

Climate science is based on a massive amount of evidence, but even then the system is so complicated that predictions on your or my lifespan are tricky at best. But the longterm trends are clear: increased CO2 levels equal a hotter earth -- we just don't know the shape of the path to that hotter place.

RMSHEFF
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RMSHEFF 04/22/13 - 04:57 pm
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Wow ! 800,000....Now I know

Wow ! 800,000....Now I know they are confused since the earth has only been here for about 6,500 years.

Young Fred
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Young Fred 04/22/13 - 04:58 pm
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Yep, ice core suppositions.

Yep, ice core suppositions. The best kind, or so I'm told. 800,000 years! Is that number rounded? Not 797,362 years? No suppositions there I'm sure, pure, COLD, hard facts. And the "evidence" is "massive".

All kidding aside, your last sentence is telling. Specifically "we just don't know".

burninater
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burninater 04/22/13 - 05:07 pm
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You do understand, of course,

You do understand, of course, that this is the same scientific "supposition" that put us on the moon, created modern medicine, computers, stealth bombers, satellites, combustion engines, modern agriculture, nuclear power, etc etc etc etc.

Why this specific body of work is dismissed out of hand is an interesting phenomenon.

And RMSHEFF, thanks for the chuckle.

Young Fred
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Young Fred 04/22/13 - 05:08 pm
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This conservation has gotten

This conservation has gotten way off track. I believe the original issue was the pure, unadulterated, nonsense of the letter writer.

Young Fred
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Young Fred 04/22/13 - 05:15 pm
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No burn, it's not the same

No burn, it's not the same science, the examples you've listed were ultimately proven to be true. I can assure you that the people sent to the moon were not relying on political expedient, slavering for gubment money, ice core suppositions. Some of the processes may be similar, but hey, similar is not duplicate.

Darby
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Darby 04/22/13 - 05:22 pm
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L/P's have created a world of fantasy, and now

they find themselves living in it, unable to escape. Not that they would ever want to.

Kind of like being on a permanent Valium IV drip.

Dystopia becomes an imagined Utopia and you don't even notice or care.

If I didn't care about the security of my family or about my children's future, I'd probably want some of that.

burninater
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burninater 04/22/13 - 05:32 pm
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YF, the data is the data.

No burn, it's not the same science
----------
YF, it is the same science, and the data is the data.

You'll have to excuse me as this slips back into dogmaville.

Darby
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Darby 04/22/13 - 05:28 pm
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It was interesting to find out that the founding

fathers were all liberals.

Would be the first time ever that liberals went to war to secure their freedom.

RMSHEFF
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RMSHEFF 04/22/13 - 05:29 pm
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Burninater

It was the unchanging laws of physics that allowed us to do all those things. You are in the area of science that uses supposition, speculation and theory based on the evidence that remains, far in time, from the event. No one knows for sure if the event is not witnessed or is not a repeatable event. I am sure God chuckles at what we think we know.

burninater
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burninater 04/22/13 - 05:33 pm
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And RMSHEFF, it is the

And RMSHEFF, it is the unchanging laws of physics that validates the ice core data, and that increases heat retention by an atmosphere with increased greenhouse gas concentrations.

It's all the same physics.

Young Fred
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Young Fred 04/22/13 - 06:00 pm
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“dogmaville”? hmmm, I'll

“dogmaville”? hmmm, I'll take that as a badge of honor.

The laws of physics has proven itself time and time again. So far as we know., but I'm not about to question that which is proven. As far as the physical sciences are concerned, there are “truths” and there are educated guesses. Whole conventions are dedicated to debating the “educated” guesses. And nowhere is there more debate than concerning atmospheric sciences.

It's really quite funny. Mere humans debating and attempting to anticipate something as complex as our weather system. In the minds of men...the hubris is almost laughable. Nothing wrong with trying – after all, how else are we to learn? Throw out something like car exhaust killing the planet and who's to argue, sounds good, passes the pc test, good for a grant or two.

Pffft!

rmwhitley
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rmwhitley 04/22/13 - 06:12 pm
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lefties

Unpublished

have caused more death and destruction than all diseases combined. France is a shining example. Cowardice is their mantra. Blaming others for their short-comings is a way of life.

AutumnLeaves
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AutumnLeaves 04/22/13 - 06:42 pm
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Regarding...

Regarding the editor to the letter headlined "Liberals built a freer world": No, they didn't. I suspect the writer thinks Al Gore invented the internet and Abraham Lincoln was a Democrat. No and No.

myfather15
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myfather15 04/22/13 - 07:52 pm
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Only the author of this

Only the author of this ridiculous article could bloviate a bunch of names from history, assert they were ALL liberal and then claim to have won the debate with this "Proof". When, in reality the only proof we've been given is again the ol "I said it's a fact, so it must be."

Mr. Reese said it is so, so there is ZERO possibility of his being wrong or intentionally slanting his information to the left......right?

Even other democratic, left leaning liberals on here said the "liberals" of those times wouldn't even recognize the liberals of today. You also say the repulicans of those times have change and are now the democrats; so that you guys can take credit for freeing the slaves. But certainly it can't be both ways can it? Liberals like Jefferson then, couldn't be the republicans of today, right? Oooooh no, theres no way that could be; that wouldn't help the liberal agenda.

The ONLY time Lincoln was completely supportive of federal rights over states was the the slavery issue and with good reason. More than anything, Lincoln wanted slavery abolished WITHOUT destroying the Union. He wanted to keep the union together at ALL cost; because he was a visionary, just as the founding fathers. He knew it would be disastrous for the United States to break up. We would have free the slaves, yet lost the Country.

Yet just another pathetic example of you distorting history to fit your agenda. ANYONE can do that anytime they want, doesn't make them or YOU correct. So no, I won't be in a big hurry to write that check unless you can come up with something better than "I said they were liberal, so they were."

carcraft
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carcraft 04/22/13 - 07:58 pm
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Burninater, your 2:37 post

Burninater, your 2:37 post was about me! We now have reached the point where the global warming models are not lining up with the data and the actual temps are at the very lowest temps of the models! So either it is science with predictions made on observation that follow reality or it is some wild speculation. The longer this goes on the more obvious it becomes that "global warming " is not conforming to the "scientific "models. Some data suggests we have had no warming about 20 years! So who is clinging to dogma?

myfather15
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myfather15 04/22/13 - 08:00 pm
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@Burninator

Go back and look at all your "liberal scientists" predictions on this day in 1970 and tell me how many have came true.

I do believe they predicted the end of civilization within 10 years with 100's of millions dying of starvation and disease. When liberal scientists are wrong over and over again, please forgive me for being skeptical.

When a radical Christian predicts Christ's return on a certain day and it doesn't happen, they get ruthlessly attack by the secular left and media. When these liberal scientists are WRONG over and over, they get a pass. Hhhmmmmmm, sounds suspicious to me.

myfather15
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myfather15 04/22/13 - 08:20 pm
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And to say the founding

And to say the founding fathers you specifically mentioned were of the same mindset of today's liberals, is a stretch indeed. These men, over and over warned of government tyrannical oppression. They were the ones who laid the foundation of the 2nd amendment, specifically to defend against the government; not against armed robbers but against the thugs in government. No doubt these men were middle of the road guys, or maybe a little right of center in todays politics.

carcraft
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carcraft 04/22/13 - 08:30 pm
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Maybe global warming science,

Maybe global warming science, or was it the science of the new ice age, or was it the science that said snow would be rare in England, can they all be the science invented by liberals?

Young Fred
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Young Fred 04/22/13 - 08:53 pm
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I hate that everybody is

I hate that everybody is piling on burn.

He does put forth much effort in making a point and does it with civility. With a little jab here and there of course.

No doubt he's sitting there right now and shaking his head because us simpletons just can't quite grasp the point he's trying to make.

I believe it was burn himself who said: “His skepticism has become dogma”. But you see, that's a two way street. Given the FACT that his “peeps” have been so grossly wrong on so many occasions renders all they say suspect. Might be unfair but it is what it is. I hope for our sake they are true to form. Being a betting man, and looking at the record I'm fairly confident the earth won't burn within the next few decades. At least not in the way “they” forsee.

myfather15
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myfather15 04/22/13 - 08:53 pm
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People of the liberal mindset

People of the liberal mindset today and throughout history remain the same. They will lie and slant historical facts to their side. They want to take credit for EVERYTHING good that has occur in the history of this Country, but skirt any responsibility regarding anything bad.

As with most policiticians, Johnson wasn't about to let an opportunity pass him by without taking advantage of it. He did nothing more than continue the policies of Kennedy and yes, make them a little stronger. Yes, most liberals tout Johnson as a civil rights hero; completely ignoring the fact he openly used the "N" word towards black people working in and around the White House. Used condescending remarks towards miniorites constantly and actually thought them to be less intelligent human beings. Basically, Johnson would have done NOTHING without Kennedy haven't laid the foundation. Kennedy today, would have been considered a far right conservative compared to liberals of today.

The way liberals choose to portray their heros, is sickening. Such as Margaret Sanger who they protray as a great liberal mind; all the while she was a devout racist and formed planned parenthood with the intentions of dramatically reducing the black population.

This is why liberals have taken over the education system. They must distort history to hide their true background. Liberal history is rampant with racism, sexism and bigotry; all the things they claim the conservatives today are. They are the masters of deception and distortion. They indoctrinate the youth of today with their liberal non-sense, which is exactly why the USA has fallen to 37th in the world in education. They teach NO other way of thinking, besides liberal theology. They've lied about history to APPEAR to be the party of minorities and civil rights, when that could NOT be farther from the truth. The true liberal mindset follows right along with the worst communist dictators in the 20th century. Liberals today certainly do NOT tout more freedom, but far less for the individuals. But my gosh, are they brilliant at deception. It's just a shame the American people are willingly ignorant of their deception and lies.

Young Fred
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Young Fred 04/22/13 - 09:19 pm
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“These men, over and over

“These men, over and over warned of government tyrannical oppression”

True that! And isn't it ridiculous, saddening, disheartening, that this point has to be made over and over again. A BASIC truth that should be taught within our homes, schools, and churches from the very day that the little ones learn to communicate. It makes me physically ill this has to be pointed out. It's the very “stuff” of this country. It's what made us different, it's what made us better, it's what made us the place others wished to migrate to, to imitate.

It is the basic truth of freedom. To be a man, or a women, seeking our own destiny. Not rabbits in a cage, or unthinking, unknowing zombies blithely and blindly marching to the drum beet of others. I spit on the man that thinks otherwise!

Young Fred
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Young Fred 04/22/13 - 09:43 pm
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Myfather makes an excellent

Myfather makes an excellent point. Libs had to take control of the education system, or risk seeing their ideas relegated to the dust bin of history, along with the rest of the garbage.

While your bringing up despicable figures in history, such as Sanger, don't forget John Dewey. The “father” of our modern education system. Hind sight being 20-20 we can safely say, he was/is a total failure. Not just a failure but a dangerous force. A low-life, humada humada, ...well you get the drift. To this day the upper echelons in our ivory towers bow at his feet, so to speak. These are the people that teach the teachers who teach the teachers of our children. As with most progressives, they use a few good ideas to mask/hide the destructive.

Chris 232
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Chris 232 04/23/13 - 12:23 am
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Will someone please give

Unpublished

Will someone please give MyFather15 a bible to read, I think she's having a withdrawal attack

myfather15
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myfather15 04/23/13 - 10:38 pm
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Horace Mann created the

Horace Mann created the public education system because he wanted a structured system to instill DISCIPLINE in children he saw as becoming undisciplined heathen.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but personal discipline isn't exactly high on the liberals priorities in todays society; quite the opposite. They want to legalize ALL narcotics, not just marijuana. They want "Free sex", without consequences; hence their fight for unfettered abortions and fighting to FORCE religious organization supply birth control.

They want to legalize just about ANYTHING anyone wants to do; including gay marriage. Hhhhmmm, seems to me that any sort of discipline would be the very LAST thing they would tout. Again, just another example of a "liberal" being not so liberal. After reading much about Horace Mann, he certainly had some quirks, but certainly would be no hard leftist liberal in today standards; but nice try Mr. Reese.

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