Gays deserve marriage right

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Cal Thomas’s recent column describing his opposition to gay marriage reiterated some familiar arguments.

First, allowing gay citizens to marry would force the law to recognize other kinds of marriage, like polygamy, marriage between siblings, etc. Second, gay marriage is wrong because the Bible condemns homosexuality as immoral. The first argument cannot justify continued discrimination against homosexual couples. The latter is a personal matter to which people are entitled, but has no place in a government meant to serve all people.

Marriage is a civil right that most Americans can enjoy. To deny this to couples because of sexual orientation, it must be shown that there is a demonstrable harm to society in failing to do so. No research shows that children raised in gay households suffer harm from it. What matters is that a child has loving, supportive parents, regardless of sexuality.

The rest is a matter of how consenting adults choose to live their lives.

What opponents of marriage equality must answer is the question of discrimination. Not allowing homosexual couples the same rights as heterosexual couples is discrimination based on sexual orientation. Why shouldn’t a gay person be covered under his/her partner’s insurance? Or allowed to visit them in the hospital? Or accept legal custody over their children? These are the questions that opponents of gay marriage must answer.

Refusing to grant gay relationships the same rights as heterosexuals under the law is indefensible. Gay people want to have the right to devote their lives to one another with the same level of commitment as anyone else, and to have the state recognize that devotion. Prejudice is no excuse.

Daniel Barden

Martinez

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myfather15
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myfather15 03/17/13 - 04:56 pm
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Little lamb

I wouldn't object to civil unions or garriage, as you called it (by the way, I loved that). But you mark my words, they would NOT be satisfied with civil unions or any other arrangement. I bet you a years salary, they wouldn't be satisfied with legalized marriage. A year or two after getting it legalized, they would be calling for special priviledges because they would STILL BE MINORITY couples. They would continue to bring thier minority status to attention, asking for further benefits. You can NOT satisfy this beast.

carcraft
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carcraft 03/17/13 - 05:13 pm
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I love the liberals that post

I love the liberals that post here talk about. Christians 100 years ago yet avoid the racism that was bread and butter to the Democrats! Pot meet pot! Because it was the Christian Church (and not liberal branches) that lead to the Abolition of Slavery! The very Battle hymn (yes their is a Christian Church militant) "He died to make men holy let us die to make men free "! Now what president desegregated the Schools in Arkansas? Why the REPUBLICAN EISENHOWER! So the Christianz and the Republicans were in the fore front of civil rights! People like Al Gores dad, Robert Byrd (a grand dragon of the. KKK) remained Democrats and rackets for Years! I do believe Robert Byrd filibustered civil rights legislation!

WalterBradfordCannon
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WalterBradfordCannon 03/17/13 - 05:27 pm
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@myfather15, discrimination

@myfather15, discrimination is not nearly pejorative enough. It is bigotry, plain and simple.

carcraft
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carcraft 03/17/13 - 06:02 pm
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Ah another country is heard

Ah another country is heard from and name calling is the order! No logic no reasoned thought just a pejorative word! Boy, talk about advancing the level of discourse!

RMSHEFF
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RMSHEFF 03/17/13 - 06:10 pm
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Opinion, everybody has one...

It matters not what people feel of think. The only thing that matters is what God the Creator says. Read His Word.

Dawgfan62
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Dawgfan62 03/17/13 - 06:22 pm
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MyFather15

My reference to my education was in response to inchristslove asking where I went to school. One's educational level does not make their opinion more valid than another's. However, what I do know is that it is wrong to deny a group of people a basic right on the basis of a majorities religious beliefs or moral code. It is appalling how many people stand behind their religion to disparage a group of people because their Bible says that it is a sin. Well news flash, not everyone follows the same Bible and therefore do not subscribe to the same view points as yourself. Your religious beliefs are not any more right than someone else's and you cannot use your religion to deny another group a civil right. In the very near future our courts will strike down the laws preventing gay marriage just as it gave voting rights for women and civil rights to blacks. To be a fly on the wall in the homes of the bigots on that day would be priceless!

Dawgfan62
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Dawgfan62 03/17/13 - 06:25 pm
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Rmshff

Should I read the Bible, the Koran, or the sacred word of the countless other religions? My point is that not everyone believes as you do and the Bible that I am certain to which you are referring can be interpreted in many different ways by many different people. Who's interpretation is right?

InChristLove
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InChristLove 03/17/13 - 06:41 pm
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'To be a fly on the wall in

'To be a fly on the wall in the homes of the bigots on that day would be priceless!"

Dawg, do tell, would the Jesus you worship approve of YOUR behavior as you so righteously asked of me?

myfather15
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myfather15 03/17/13 - 06:52 pm
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@Dawgfan62

Where exactly did I use God in my argument? Might want to look back over that again. The only place I might have used it was in reference to another persons misinterpretation of scripture; not to further my argument. I used NATURE; because no matter how you believe we came about, NATURE developed the natural order and homosexuality isn't in it. I don't care if you believe in evolution, big bang theory or anything else; the FACT is, men and women NATURALLY PROCREATE, men/men can NOT and neither can women/women. So, try coming at me with something I DID ACTUALLY USE, instead of just continuing to attack the Bible, which I didn't use.

myfather15
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myfather15 03/17/13 - 06:56 pm
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@Dawgfan

I also see you've choosen to completely IGNORE the vast majority of my arguments, and continue staying on the liberal talking points of calling names when you can't defeat them with substance.

RMSHEFF
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RMSHEFF 03/17/13 - 07:00 pm
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DAwGFAN62

Start your search. The Bible has a few "gray" areas that we could discuss but homosexuality is not one of them. God spoke through His Word, He spoke clearly and did not mumble. There can only be one truth and everything else is a lie. Search earnestly and you will find it. The truth is not dependant on anyone believing it, to be the truth.

lovingthesouth72
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lovingthesouth72 03/17/13 - 07:01 pm
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sad situation

homosexual so-called "marriage" would be a devastation to society and children - unfortunately the homosexual lobby will not desist into forcing everyone to accept their lifestyle. The truth is that this lifestyle is contrary to nature and to who we are as men and women. We can't deny this fact, it's imprinted in our bodies. We just need to move on and accept the fact that something that is not natural will never be natural.

Bizkit
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Bizkit 03/17/13 - 07:23 pm
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I support gay unions not gay

I support gay unions not gay marriage. But the science on gay parents is in turmoil presently. One new study questions gay parenting http://www.livescience.com/20882-sex-parenting-study-controversy.html
Apparently there was a flaw in the analysis however the author says the conclusions remain the same.

carcraft
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carcraft 03/17/13 - 07:39 pm
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I brought up the fact that

I brought up the fact that society and the legal system attach expectations to heterosexaul marriage they don't to gay marriage! The lesbian couple that divorced after having a child "together " the state went after the sperm donor not the other lesbian for child support. Now a heterosexual couple got divorced he had to pay child support EVEN THOUGH HE WAS NOT THE BIOLOGICAL FATHER! The assumption by the courts and state is that he is the father and has to shoulder that responsibility! No such assumption for the lesbians! Now this clearly indicates that there will be a two level system of divorce because of biology! The risks simply won't be the same for homosexuals! Now please respond or quit stating the only objection is religious? No matter how much gays desire equality in marriage with heterosexuals it won't happen because of biology!

myfather15
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myfather15 03/17/13 - 07:51 pm
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Basically, the people who are

Basically, the people who are adamantly pushing this issue; are the same immoral human beings who push for abortion (in the false name of women's rights); and they usually push for the legalization of ALL drugs, not just marijuana. They are usually an "Anything goes society", well except religion, they would love to ban that completely.

My wife and I had beautiful twins (Boy+Girl) on January 25th, 2013. These disgusting immoral human beings would advocate allowing a woman to have murdered those beautiful babies on January 24th, 2013. Letting her and the doctor walk out of there feeling good about themselves. These human beings (and I use that term VERY lightly) got abortion passed; now they are fighting for legalized abortion, even just AFTER the baby has been delivered. Partial birth abortions are already being preformed in many States. This is a BARBARIC procedure, where the they stick a tube into the babies skull and suck their brains out, as they are coming down the birth canal.

Again, now these secular leftist liberals want to make it legal to MURDER the baby after it has been born!! What kind of human beings are these? MOST of them, are the same ones adamantly pushing THIS issue. Their called SECULAR EXTREME LEFTISTS, because on here, I can't call them what I would like to.

NOTICE, at the first of this comment; I didn't mention homosexuals, I mentioned those ADAMANTLY Pushing this issue and MANY of them are not homosexual. I have no issue with homosexuals; but I'm beginning to truly dislike the extreme left in this Country. It's the radical LEFT that is tearing this Country apart and blurring the lines of right and wrong. It's THEM who are pushing issues like this so hard. Like I said earlier, I know several gay people who are not activists and ARE NOT trying to destroy the moral fabric of society. They just want to do what they do and be left alone. It's the RADICAL LEFT GOD HATERS that are constantly on the ATTACK; Not the regular joe citizen homosexual.

Guess what? You ARE going to win more and more battles; but we have an ace in the hole. YOU WILL LOSE!! WATCH AND SEE!!

Jane18
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Jane18 03/17/13 - 07:52 pm
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ICL and myfather15...

You KNOW there are some that will not "hear", you know that! It is a fact, and we cannot and should not worry ourselves over the "world". Even though we love our brothers and sisters, we must remember, if Jesus was hated, we will be also. Make your stand, and "don't cast all your pearls"(of wisdom) to those that do Not want to hear them.........You were right, and that's what counts!

myfather15
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myfather15 03/17/13 - 08:05 pm
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These are the people we are

These are the people we are supposed to look to, for the future of this Countries moral compass? America, if you are that stupid; you get what you deserve. But, if this dispensation of time were to stand long enough, I would hate it for my children and grandchildren. But I believe the last battle is going to happen in my lifetime.

myfather15
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myfather15 03/17/13 - 08:08 pm
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Thanks Jane, I know what

Thanks Jane, I know what you're saying and you are right.

Dawgfan62
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Dawgfan62 03/17/13 - 08:30 pm
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Myfather15

Finally, something that we can agree upon. Abortion is murder and partial birth abortions are particularly horrid and how a doctor can perform one is beyond crazy.

WalterBradfordCannon
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WalterBradfordCannon 03/17/13 - 09:28 pm
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@myfather15, discrimination

@myfather15, discrimination is not, by itself, a negative. It simply means telling things apart. Bigotry, on the other hand, is negative, and does imply illogical prejudice. There is just no other explanation for depriving people of rights based on their natal phenotype.

@RMSHEFF, Jesus never spake of homosexuality. The biblical books are 2000 years old, and have been used to justify slavery, Jim Crow laws, and depriving women of the vote at various points in time. The point is, that times change, and the interpretation of the bible must change to match the times. Today we understand that there is nothing you can do to change someone's sexual orientation after they are born. NOTHING. Literally, there is no evidence for any alteration in the person causing a change in sexual orientation. For the most part, people are simply born gay. If the book you read tells you to deprive gay people of rights, then the book you read is teaching you to be a bigot. Jesus was no bigot, and the continued insistence that anyone who supports the bible cannot tolerate gay marriage is an insult to the Lord himself.

Little Lamb
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Little Lamb 03/18/13 - 12:07 am
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So What?

WBC posted:

The biblical books are 2000 years old, and have been used to justify slavery, Jim Crow laws, and depriving women of the vote at various points in time.

Your point is? Just because ignorant people, or bigots, or somebody else tried to justify something does not invalidate the truth of the biblical books.

carcraft
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carcraft 03/18/13 - 05:30 am
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WalterBradfordCannon As I

WalterBradfordCannon As I have already pointed out NUMEROUS TIMES in the case of the Lesbians that divorced, it isn't just about being biggoted. NOBODY, REPEAT NOBODY, has risen to the challange of explaining , if homosexual marriage is equal, why the state did not go after the dead beat lesbian for child support. Maybe you want to take a bite at it. Of course it is just easier to call people names than to have a reaoned discussion!

WalterBradfordCannon
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WalterBradfordCannon 03/18/13 - 05:58 am
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@carcraft, perhaps you should

@carcraft, perhaps you should think more carefully. If gay marriage were legal, they would have! Legally there are specific responsibilities to biological parents as well as to legal parents. Without gay marriage, however, the non-maternal lesbian has no legal responsibility. With gay marriage, she would bear as much responsibility as a non-biological deadbeat dad (or mom as the case may be).

WalterBradfordCannon
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WalterBradfordCannon 03/18/13 - 06:05 am
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@Little Lamb, my point is

@Little Lamb, my point is very easy to grasp. People have, in the past, used the bible to justify actions that are today considered atrocious and unjustifiable even with biblical verse. Those actions include slavery, Jim Crow laws, and depriving women of the vote. It is therefore absolutely a fallacious argument to state that gay marriage is unallowable because the bible says it is wrong. You could make the same, fallacious, argument to say that we should start enslaving negros again, or that we should deprive women of the vote (the biblical text on women's rights is particularly clear).

That is not a good reason, nor any reason at all. The bible is a great guide written appropriately for its day and age. We live in a different day and age. There are bound to be some significant issues in interpreting the 2000 year old bible in 21st century USA. Today we know that homosexuality is determined by birth, and cannot be changed thereafter. We know that homosexual parents do AT LEAST as good a job as heterosexual parents (and using many sociological measures, better). We know that gay couples run into legal problems that relate to them sharing their lives that non-gay married couples do not. We can solve their problems, easily, at virtually no cost. In my eyes, it is the Christian thing to do, the moral thing to do, and the right thing to do.

myfather15
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myfather15 03/18/13 - 08:52 am
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Walter

If I marry a woman who already has children; and I do NOT adopt those children. If WE divorce, I'm not responsible for child support on those children, their biological father remains responsible for that. So, if lesbians marry, one is NOT the maternal mother; then they divorce, do you HONESTLY believe the issue of the other NOT being biological would NOT come up in Court? Ooooh, you can bet your sweet behind it would. When losing money is involved, along with the issue of divorce, which usually comes with harsh feelings already; hence the divorce, I can promise you; this issue of one not being the biological parent IS GOING to come up.

You're attempting to say MARRIAGE binds the person to the child, but that is just NOT factual. Being the BIOLOGICAL parent is what BINDS you to that child, OR legal adoption; not marriage. So if the lesbian has not legally adopted the child; I promise you, she has a strong case to deny paying child support. Then who will they go after? Probably the SPERM DONOR, because he is the biological father. DID YOU HEAR THAT? I said FATHER, because it's impossible for TWO WOMEN to create another human being; it takes a MAN. THIS is nature; which dictates the reproduction of the species. It takes a MAN and WOMAN, and it you tinker with the natural order; you are going to cause MANY unforseen problems.

Oh, by the way; thanks for the lesson earlier. I sure wouldn't have known any of that without a brilliant person like you explaining it to me. Golly gee, I learn so much on here from super smart people like you; maybe one day I will eventually come out of these ol traditions I hold on too. Gee wiiiz, maybe I'll see that old worn out book the way you SMART people do. Well, I guess since god doesn't exist, I can't pray to find brains like you, but I hope one day to be smart like you.

WalterBradfordCannon
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WalterBradfordCannon 03/18/13 - 09:12 am
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@myfather15, my wife was born

@myfather15, my wife was born to a single mother. The mother was married less than a year later, and my wife was, at that time, adopted by the father. This practice is extremely common in such cases.

The issue that arises with gay couples is that courts will often not recognize the same-sex partner for adoption purposes. I have friends who had a child (lesbian couple) a decade ago. The friends split recently, and there is quite an issue over visitation of the children by the non-maternal mother. These issues could be dealt with in reasonable terms if gay marriage (and thus gay adoption) were as legal as it is for heterosexuals.

carcraft
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carcraft 03/18/13 - 10:32 am
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Walterbradfordcannon.

Walterbradfordcannon. Apperantly you did not read my earlier post. A man who was not the biological father is still on the hook for child support because of the presumption of the court that he is the father of the child. No such presumption exists for gays! I guess we should just say that if your married and have a kid reguardless of actual parantage you are the father. If the sperm donor disrupted the marriage well tough luck for the husband. No wait, if it is a gay couple and the sperm donor disrupts the marriage the gay partner is responsible. You decide...as I said marriage exists to provide stable families for procreation. Clearly something gays can't do, and the gay partner can always claim the preganancy was against her of his will! No presumption of biological relationship can exist!

InChristLove
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InChristLove 03/18/13 - 10:40 am
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WBC, you are so sadly

WBC, you are so sadly mistaken....Though the Bible was completed many years ago, it still remains absolutely relevant to the spiritual needs of people today. Hebrews 4:12 says "For the Word of God is living and active..." Scripture will never be irrelevant because it addresses the universal needs of all people, to know God, to experience His forgiveness, and to know how God would have us live our lives. God's Word never changes but the principles we find in the Bible sure can change our lives. It has in the past, it is today, and it will continue in the future.

InChristLove
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InChristLove 03/18/13 - 10:56 am
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WBC, you are absolutely

WBC, you are absolutely correct. There is no where in the Bible that states gays can not get married. If fact gay marriage is not even mentioned in scripture.

BUT...what it does state is that marriage is a covenant between God and man and woman. Has been for thousands of years. Every passage that mentions a union is always between a woman and a man. Scripture in Timothy speaks on a husband's love and care for his wife, and a wife's love and respect for her husband. Never mentions same gender love and care or marriage or union.

You stated "In my eyes, it is the Christian thing to do"

And by what authority can you state what is the Christian thing to do. For someone who does not believe in the Holy scriptures as being the very Word of God, I do not believe you are qualified to make that statement. And to speak on the moral thing to do, by who's standard are you judging by...your own?

myfather15
55706
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myfather15 03/18/13 - 10:34 pm
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No matter how much we bring

No matter how much we bring up the issue; they will simply not address the natural aspect of reproduction and continuing the species. If everyone were gay in 1800's, we wouldn't be here; NONE OF US. The species would be extinct. The natural order of reproduction is that male and female procreate, THATS IT; no man and man or woman and woman. They won't address this because they have no legitimate argument against this. They only continue to attack the Bible, even with people who HAVEN'T used the Bible in their argument.

They realize in this Country they actually do not have to follow any certain religion. This is why they just continue to attack the Bible, because it's an easy target; since they don't have to lawfully follow it. BUT, they can NOT deny that nature created the natural order of reproduction and homosexuals ARE NOT in that natural order. Therefore, it is against nature. I do believe everyone on here loves sex, myself very much included; but the fact is there is a much greater purpose for sexual intercourse. It isn't JUST for pleasure, it's for reproduction; but homosexual couples are void of this greater purpose. So, IF there is to be standards by which States should hold in reference to legal marriage. This greater cause should be it, in my opinion. When gay couples can NATURALLY procreate with each other, I'll vote for their marriage to be legal; but that AIN'T gonna happen.

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