It's a post-Christian nation

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The results of the presidential election last month left me with some degree of shock and trepidation. However, after having some time now to evaluate the causes and effects, I am forced to draw a few conclusions.

First, I now believe America is a post-Christian nation. While most Americans claim to be Christians, their actions say otherwise. Church membership and attendance are declining; God has been eliminated from government, schools and most public venues; and abortions will soon be funded through Obamacare. Even the Democratic National Convention attempted to remove any mention of God while adopting many of the sins in Romans 1 into the party’s platform.

We have witnessed the sin of covetousness raised to the level of a virtue, and complete reliance on the federal government a right. We have, in essence, hired President Obama to use the power and authority of the federal government to seize the earnings of my neighbor and give it to me, all under the guise of “fairness.” Once upon a time few would have considered they had a “right” to another man’s earnings, and a reliance on the federal government was something to be avoided. Shame is no longer evident in our society.

I am reminded of a quote from Founding Father and second U.S. president John Adams: “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” I believe this truth is now self-evident, as we are clearly no longer a moral and religious people. Many would like to blame all of the problems in America, such as the national debt and moral decay, on President Obama or other politicians. However, we get the government we elect and therefore deserve.

The only question remaining is: How long will God withhold His judgment on America? As a Christian I take great comfort in knowing that, whatever our future holds, God is still on the throne and everything is going according to His perfect plan.

Robert Sheffer

North Augusta, S.C.

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burninater
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burninater 12/22/12 - 03:42 am
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Mr. Sheffer, I LOVE YOU! Keep

Mr. Sheffer, I LOVE YOU! Keep on trumpeting to the world that you believe the re-election of Obama somehow subverts a "Christian" America. Please, keep painting in broad strokes the absolute arrogance of yourself, and those of like mind, that the election of someone you didn't vote for equates to a shift in the Heavens and on Earth. Keep weaving this dialogue of the inseperability of your delusions of religious immanence with the ability of Republicans to do the non-religious job of RUNNING A GOV'T.

The Democratic Party could do nothing more damaging to the Republicans than what you, and those of like mind, do on a daily basis. BRAVO, SIR, BRAVO!

Now, we just need a Center Right Party to supplant this complete meltdown shambles of a religious cult the Repubs have become, and we can get back to the business of running the country.

specsta
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specsta 12/22/12 - 03:41 am
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America Is NOT and NEVER Was A Christian Nation

The United States has never been a "Christian" nation. It is a nation with the freedom to participate in religious beliefs or NOT participate.

If the idea of a "Christian" nation is one where the settlers (European invaders) systematically destroy the lives and culture of the indigenous people (Native Americans) through violence, disease and trickery; if a "Christian" nation is one where enslaved Africans are stripped of all humanity and tortured endlessly to provide free labor; if a "Christian" nation is one where human experimentation is government-sanctioned (Tuskegee) and Japanese-Americans are rounded up like cattle and imprisoned for their ethnicity - then that doesn't say very much about the RIGHTNESS of a so-called Christian nation.

This myopic viewpoint that somehow God favors or disfavors a nation is ridiculous. God loves people in the Sudan or Eastern Europe or Malaysia equally. To think that somehow God favors America, because it claims to be a "Christian" nation, is arrogance at its height.

It would be better for the United States to aspire to be an "Equal" nation, where the rich are not coddled, ethnic people are not discriminated against, and the justice system is fair to all.

This notion that the United States is a "Christian" nation needs to die a quick death.

DanK
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DanK 12/22/12 - 05:57 am
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Shocked!

I am shocked that Mr Sheffer was shocked at the outcome of the presidential election. I suppose he had been watching nothing but Fox "news" leading up to election day. Because the unbiased polls and expert analysts had called the election for Obama well before then.

Mr Sheffer, I know it is difficult for you to accept, but the majority of Americans, even those who embrace Christianity, just do not cling to the extreme positions of the Righteous Right. Single women make up 20% of the voter populace. Most would say they are Christian. But most believe that it is their choice whether to have a child or not. Most support abortion rights and most want their health insurance to cover contraceptive methods. Most Americans believe that people should get back in Social Security at least what they paid in, and that they should enjoy the benefits of a health care program that they paid into all their lives. Most believe that it is the right and honorable thing to do, to care for our wounded vetrans, to help the sick, the weak, the poor. These are all Christian values that have somehow been abandoned by the Righteous Right.

Yes, it is obscene to see the wealthiest Americans feeding at the federal trough, funneling their ill-got federal largess into offshore accounts and paying less in taxes than 98% of Americans. And it is obscene to hear politicians defending their welfare programs for the rich combined with justifications for stealing from the elderly, poor and disabled. It is the complete antithesis of Christianity, and yet for some unknown reason, the Righteous Right approves of it. So much for their Christian values.

I'm sure, Mr Sheffer, that you and the Righteous Right would like to enforce your personal morality upon the entire nation, require conformity to your particular ideology. Thankfully, the U.S. was founded as a *secular* state that *tolerates* all religions, but *imposes* no religion upon its citizens.

I am glad, though, that your god is on his throne, and that all is going along nicely, according to his plan. I'm not sure what you are complaining about, because this is, after all, exactly what your god wills.

So why are you shocked and dismayed? Why are you not joyful that your god's hand is guiding events?

Do not condemn others, Mr Sheffer. Look within. You've obviously just not adequately understood your god's plan.

By the way, Mr Sheffer, Founding Father and third president Thomas Jefferson, who had a strong hand in most founding documents, referred explicitly to Nature's God, not a Christian god, as he was a deist who adhered to the notion of a rational religion, not a personal god. He, James Madison and many other pivotal figures in the creation of our secular nation separated church from government affairs. The notion of forceably imposing the ideology of one particular brand of religious belief upon a country or a state would have been unthinkable for those men. America will, hopefully, never be a theocracy of any flavor.

TrukinRanger
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TrukinRanger 12/22/12 - 08:30 am
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I was ready to start typing
Unpublished

I was ready to start typing away- after DanK's post I don't need to.

RMSHEFF
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RMSHEFF 12/22/12 - 09:41 am
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America was never a Christian nation?

specsta, if by your statement you mean the actual nation was not a Christian nation I would agree. A nation cannot be Christian anymore than a tree stump can be a Christian tree stump. We as Americans were mostly Christian upon our founding and the overwhelming majority of our founder were also. When people of Faith build anything they leave their Christian fingerprints on their work just as they did when they formed our government. Our laws are taken from the pages of scripture and this is the reason why President Obama and liberals like yourself are not fond of our Constitution. The point of the letter is that the actual number of people today who profess to be Christians are not actually Christians. Their profession is verbal only because their actions are not consistent with Christian beliefs. Their are fewer Christians in America now than in our founding and the number continues to decline.

If you say our founders were not men of great faith and mostly Christian and you say the people of that time were not likewise then you are "all wet". Take some time to search the website below. Mr Barton of "Wallbuilders" has the largest private collection of personal letters between our founder. If you read these letter written in their own hand you cannot believe what you said above.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=22345

rmwhitley
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rmwhitley 12/22/12 - 10:17 am
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Did Mr. Sheffer's
Unpublished

comments just whizz past some of you without pausing to understand his meaning?

RMSHEFF
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RMSHEFF 12/22/12 - 10:44 am
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Dank

Dank said "Most Americans believe that people should get back in Social Security at least what they paid in, and that they should enjoy the benefits of a health care program that they paid into all their lives". Many get everything they paid into both of these programs back in 2 years. This is the main reason for our 16 Trillion (and climbing) debt. Social security was never intended to provide our retirement but supplement our retirement. I strongly believe in providing for those who cannot provide for themselves however this group is much much smaller than the group we provide for now. Many, and I bet you know a few yourself, who take advantage of the very liberal entitlement programs. I am willing to help those who try to help themselves. Government programs have become a generational lifestyle for many. This dependency destroys the soul and numbs the conscience and this is why so many now see the this charity as a right. "Because I am, you must provide." One example of Government "charity" I knew about first hand is a man who was a drug user ,alcoholic and homeless who did not want private charity because they wanted to change his situation. The Government sent him cash each month which enabled him to continue his lifestyle. I can only assume you support and prefer the latter...the way thing are now. As a Christian I know that in the majority of cases of poverty there are underlying causes that must be fixed and the Federal government just sends a check allowing the person to continue in dependance.

TParty
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TParty 12/22/12 - 10:50 am
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There is no such thing as a

There is no such thing as a god, and America is not a Christian nation. I don't know why the ACES keeps up these religious letters- especially with how grumpy they get by removing so many comments when you point out how scary their thought process is, and wrong people are.

Of course Christians on here can continue to lie and insult people.

"Our laws are taken from the pages of scripture and this is the reason why President Obama and liberals like yourself are not fond of our Constitution. "

This is example of wrong the Christians promoting their religion in this area wrong. "Our laws are taken from the pages of scripture" Oh yeah, which ones? Wasn't rules on democracy, or how a government should work. Wasn't rules on rape or child molestation. That's all cool in the scripture. Wasn't about how genocide is wrong, god did that a lot, and commanded it even more. So please- which laws?!

"And this is the reason why President Obama and liberals like yourself are not fond of our Constitution. "

Of course there is no evidence for this. Just broad insults and judging of people they have never met. No examples given.

Here's a broad thing I'll throw out there. Most Christians hate the constitution and they hate democracy and freedom. They want to live in a theocracy where a king is ruler and impose Jesus's will onto people. Most Christians hate facts and science. And if you go against their views, you'll be punished and banished.

And if this comment is reported on and removed- it will prove everything I just stated. Insulting non-Christians are okay and get a lot of thumbs up, but do the same towards Christians and tantrums are thrown.

LillyfromtheMills
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LillyfromtheMills 12/22/12 - 10:52 am
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Robert Sheffer

I agree - thank you for your letter!

Jon Lester
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Jon Lester 12/22/12 - 11:33 am
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My favorite of the Founders is Thomas Paine.

People called him an arch-atheist, when all did was assert himself as a free-thinker, and say that he didn't need to go to church if he didn't want to. That's fundamentally American, I think.

Jane18
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Jane18 12/22/12 - 11:53 am
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Scoffers

I know you expected them, didn't you, Mr. Sheffer? And yes, we, as a Nation, have brought everything that is happening to us, on ourselves. But, it is all part of The Plan......................

Gage Creed
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Gage Creed 12/22/12 - 11:57 am
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It would be better for the

It would be better for the United States to aspire to be an "Equal" nation, where the people are not coddled, people are not discriminated against, and the justice system is fair to all people.

RMSHEFF
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RMSHEFF 12/22/12 - 12:25 pm
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Tparty

Tparty said "Our laws are taken from the pages of scripture" Oh yeah, which ones?

Our Constitution says: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. The right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness come from God not man so man cannot take them from us.

Of course God tells us not to steal and not to kill as does the laws of the land on the criminal side. On the moral side adultery and sodomy were against law at one time. Slavery is now illegal and it was once illegal to kill the unborn. The moral and civil laws coincide with God's command to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That one has gone away as everyone is out for themselves.

shrimp for breakfast
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shrimp for breakfast 12/22/12 - 12:37 pm
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This nation was founded by Free Masons

Even our dollar bill has Free Mason logos. the "all seeing eye" comes to mind.
Now of course the country wasn't actually founded by free masons but there were many including George Washington who had a lot to say about how they wanted the government to function.

Yes most were Christians but then again they came from Europe where Christianity was the prevailing religion. The main reason for our separation of church and state (which by the way is never mentioned in the constitution) was because the founders were sick of the government telling them how and who to worship as was customary in the "old world."

Now as far as I'm concerned the folks whose blood sweat and tears were spilled to forge a new nation didn't give a rat's butt whether we were a Christian nation or not. They were spending their time trying to survive. Being able to worship as they pleased was why they were willing to leave their old country behind and move to the colonies.

One reason we have so many other religions here is because they know we have laws protecting their free exercise of faith.

Mr. Scheffer if you think because your candidate didn't win then somehow America is doomed, anti-God and going to hell in a hand basket I can assure you this country has made it through times that were much tougher than the present day.

We're AMERICANS. we're not worried about whether this country is Christian or not. We can take ANYTHING. We have proven this over and over again.
I'm sorry but letters like yours scare me. If you were in charge I feel you would be like the rulers of old. Kings, Queens and Emperors who burned people at the stake for not believing the correct way.

Personally I think the American spirit is strong. We may have our differences but when the chips are down I've got your back and I know you've got mine.
Merry Christmas!

RMSHEFF
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RMSHEFF 12/22/12 - 12:44 pm
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Shrimp

There was a connection with Freemasonry for a few of the Founding Fathers, but the overwhelming majority were not involved with Freemasonry. Furthermore, what Freemasonry has become today with its anti-Biblical teachings and oaths was definitely not what Freemasonry was at the time the few Founders were involved with it. Freemasonry was introduced into America in 1734, and went through major transformative philosophical changes in 1799, 1813, 1825, and especially in the 1840s and 1850s, when it finally became the organization it is and adopted the anti-Biblical teachings and practices that characterize it today – teachings and practices adopted decades after the deaths of the Founding Fathers.

myfather15
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myfather15 12/22/12 - 01:01 pm
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@Tparty

What you need to do is stop whining!! I promise you, just as many of my comments have been removed as has yours. I've been warned numerous times as Sean can attest. I've actually been blocked from commenting and had to call Sean and promise to be a good boy, before he would allow me to post further. So your assertion that you are being singled out, is about as bad as your understanding of the Bible.

The difference in you and I, is that I understand this is a privately owned website and they may remove posts as they see fit. If I want to blather my STRONG personal opinions, I'm free to start my own website and write whatever I want. I suggest you do the same, or just stop crying.

On the other subject, you obviously have no understanding of the founding of this Country. That or you just plainly deny the actual founding to further your godless agenda. Which is exactly what most liberal athiests do. They actually do know our laws were founded on Judeo-Christian philsophy, but that wouldn't further their agenda, so they lie.

For what reason does a debt, go off your credit report after 7 years? I'm sure you didn't realize that God commanded peoples debts be forgiven after 7 years.

Why is it still illegal to use profane words towards another person? Yes, you can be arrested for disorderly conduct for this violation.

Why is it drugs are still illegal in this Country? Yes, I realize the left is working tirelessly to change this, but as of today, they are still illegal. If you knew anything about the Bible, you would know illicit drugs are mentioned many times. The Bible even says those that sell or use them, shall have their part in the lake that burneth with fire and brimestone.

The vast majority of our laws are based upon Biblical principals. Just because you aren't aware of them, doesn't mean that isn't true. I would be willing to bet you aren't aware of half the laws we have are based upon some sort of Biblical principal. Even the words we use to describe having sexual intercourse (Carnal knowledge) are based upon the Bible.

Again, just because YOU and like minded people don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't true. I promise you, most people in this Country DO believe it. And don't say they don't because of the Country going left, people are just asleep at the wheel. My opinion is that most people are just too darn comfortable in their lives. They don't get involved in politics.

Commentors on this website prove just that. There are hundreds of thousands of people in the CSRA, yet there are just a handful of people who get on here and give their opinions. Most people, especially Christians, many of whom I personally know, are disengaged from the political landscape. Which is exactly what is killing the conservative party. Just like the Presidential election; It wasn't the independent vote that hurt the conservatives. Most polls actually show we won the independent vote. What hurt us is that we didn't get our BASE voters out enough to win. Thats is sad. Many Christians believe in a rapture and all they have to do is have faith and wait to be taken out of here, leaving the bad people behind. Thats one of the main reasons they are disengaged. I don't believe the rapture, I believe we have much work to do right here.

myfather15
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myfather15 12/22/12 - 01:12 pm
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@Shrimp

Again, I agree with you in part. The 1st amendment didn't mean you HAVE to seperate Church from State and it doesn't come close to saying that. That's a liberal athiest interpretation. It didn't mean you can't have Christian prayer in schools, government building or anything of the sort. It didn't mean you couldn't have a public display of a Cross or Manger scene.

It simple meant the Govt could NOT establish a certain religion that EVERYONE must follow, or suffer consequences. Having a Christian President, Senator or Congressman hold a prayer is NOT establishing a religion or forcing anyone to participate. Having a Christian prayer in schools doesn't force any child to participate in that prayer either. When I grew up there were several kids in our school who didn't participate, they just sat quitely and let it happen.

What I believe happened is some liberal athiest's child some where along the way, felt exclued and got their poor little feelings hurt. So mommy and daddy decided to sue, because of "Seperation of Church and State". That's the problem with this Country, anytime someone gets there poor little feelings hurt, we jump through hoops to make their boo boo's go away. It the Truth offends, then maybe it should!! If the truth offends someone, does that make it any less true?

grouse
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grouse 12/22/12 - 01:13 pm
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Funny, how Christians claim
Unpublished

Funny, how Christians claim that God is in control and then wail about Obama being reelected. If God is in control, then he got what He wanted...

shrimp for breakfast
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shrimp for breakfast 12/22/12 - 01:23 pm
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RMSHEFF

I was just trying to be funny about the free masons influence on the country.
You know all the shows on the History channel about how they want a New World Order. Those shows always crack me up.
I agree 100% with your post.

burninater
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burninater 12/22/12 - 01:26 pm
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RMSHEFF, the Constitution,

RMSHEFF, the Constitution, the law of our land, does NOT say:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

In fact, the Constitution, the law of our land, only mentions "God" a single time, and not even in the body of the text (the part where our land's law is). "The Lord" is mentioned in the old date convention on the signatory page: "Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven". That's it. That's the only reference. Huh, isn't THAT strange for a "Christian" nation?

It's almost like people claiming we were founded as a Christian nation don't understand the very Constitution they're talking about.

shrimp for breakfast
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shrimp for breakfast 12/22/12 - 01:25 pm
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Myfathrer 15

I agree with your post. We seem to have the same take on Sep of church and state

myfather15
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myfather15 12/22/12 - 01:38 pm
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@specsta

Please stop living in the past. If you want to continue living in the past do so, but could you spare us the hatred, and of living from 1800's-1960's? This is 2012 and I would ask you to prove to me a Country that has done more for diversity than America. I just watched a documentary the other day about slavery still being alive and well in Africa. Individuals still being kidnapped from the villages and force into slavery in other areas. It said most of the kidnapping are being done by other governments in Africa or Radical Islam regimes. Yeah boy, Africa is leading the pack in treating people with dignity, huh?

What about Islamic Countries in the middle east and elsewhere? Many Countries that still don't allow women to vote and make them wear certain clothing, also covering their face. That still stone women or shoot them in the head for adultry, while letting the men do as they please. Many Countries in Africa, Middle East and Asia still cut your hand off, if you are hungry and steal an orange. Yep, we definately fall behind them in civil rights, huh?

So, let me ask a simple question since you ALWAYS like to bring up America's atrocities. What Country can you name that has NO history of oppression of some sort? Which Countries have NEVER in history participated in slavery? The fact is, mankind's diversity has evolved and progressed over the years and that includes EVERY Country. Therefore, I believe it to be factual that the USA leads the world in diversity, as it should be. If our elected officials can't prove that, there is no proving it. We have representatives of every race and sex. We have elected a MINORITY as the Commander in Chief, who could NOT have won any election without millions of white votes. But please, don't let me get in the way of your America hating agenda, by using actual facts.

Somehow, you've got to put your hatred behind you and move "Forward" as the democrats would say. Living in the past is NOT going to move you "forward". But, I realize nothing I've written will change your mind. This post was more meant for others to negate you're ridiculous claims on ONLY America's atrocities. Any person who possesses common sense realizes America isn't the only Country with atrocities in their PAST. MOVE FORWARD!!

RMSHEFF
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RMSHEFF 12/22/12 - 01:47 pm
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Burninater

If you read ALL of the founding documents and say the founders were not guided by their Faith then you need to reread them. It was precisely the fact that they new sinful men could not successfully rule themselves and left without restraints they would enslave the people they ruled. That is where statement "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." comes from. If our rights come from man then man can take them from us, like Obama would like to do. If our right come from God we are indeed free. If you could bring back the founders they would be shocked by what they would see going on now.

The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man: Thomas Jefferson

myfather15
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myfather15 12/22/12 - 01:48 pm
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@Burninator

Those words you metioned: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Those words are in the Declaration of Independence, which the last time I checked was also a government document, written and signed by the founding fathers. Which is actually the basis for our entire freedom.

But, I'm sure you would love to omit this from government documents since it refers to a "creator". Because if our rights DO NOT come from a "Creator" then they must come from MAN, therefore MAN can change or adjust those rights as they see fit. Which has happened many times recently (way before Obama as well) and is going to happen again with this gun control debate. It's a scary world indeed when someone believes our RIGHTS come from other MEN. King/Lord Obama, anyone? Just ask Jamie Foxx!!

shrimp for breakfast
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shrimp for breakfast 12/22/12 - 01:49 pm
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I hate to do this but...

This country was founded on the basic principle that "All White Men are Created Equal".

If you don't believe me then you don't believe in History.
Our Constitution is a living document and we've been refining it for over 200 years. We're never going to get it just right but I tell you one thing. I thank God everyday that I live in this country and I feel truly blessed.

burninater
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burninater 12/22/12 - 01:55 pm
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"What I believe happened is

"What I believe happened is some liberal athiest's child some where along the way, felt exclued and got their poor little feelings hurt. So mommy and daddy decided to sue, because of "Seperation of Church and State"."
---------
History reveals that often beliefs merely reflect our preconceptions rather than the entirety of what actually occurred. The basis for the 1962 school prayer ban was primarily the precedent of challenges by RELIGIOUS minorities to denominational prayer in school:

"The issue of school prayer has been hotly debated in the United States since the early 1900s. In the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries, schools in certain localites of the country customarily opened with an oral prayer or Bible reading. Religious minorities would sometimes object to the distinct observations performed in the local schools. For instance, in the Edgerton Bible Case (Weiss v. District Board (1890)), the Wisconsin Supreme Court ruled in favor of Catholics who objected to the use of the King James Bible in Wisconsin public schools. This ruling was based on the state constitution and only applied in Wisconsin, but, like other challenges elsewhere in the country, provided a precedent for federal rulings to come later."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_prayer

1962 prayer case, Engel v. Vitale:

"The case was brought by the families of public school students in New Hyde Park, New York who complained that the voluntary prayer to "Almighty God" contradicted their religious beliefs. They were supported by groups opposed to the school prayer including rabbinical organizations, Ethical Culture, and Judaic organizations."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engel_v._Vitale

1963, Abington School District v. Schempp:

"The Abington case began when Edward Schempp, a Unitarian Universalist and a resident of Abington Township, Pennsylvania, filed suit against the Abington School District in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania to prohibit the enforcement of a Pennsylvania state law that required his children, specifically Ellory Schempp, to hear and sometimes read portions of the Bible as part of their public school education."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abington_School_District_v._Schempp

The Abington case was combined with a case brought by Madelyn Murray O'Hair, the founder of American Atheists, so perhaps this is where the misconception came from that objection to school prayer was specifically an atheist issue.

Ironically, it was predominantly religious minorities, not atheists, that opposed school prayer in the U.S..

burninater
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burninater 12/22/12 - 02:08 pm
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RMSHEFF and myfather, the

RMSHEFF and myfather, the Constitution was written specifically to create this nation and its law. It did so without ONCE including God in our body of law. Some or all of the Founding Fathers were strongly influenced by Christian and Deistic beliefs -- and they DELIBERATELY and EXPLICITLY excluded God from our nation's foundational law. This is simple fact. They DELIBERATELY and EXPLICITLY created a secular nation.

myfather15
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myfather15 12/22/12 - 02:12 pm
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@Burn

Yes, you are referring to the cases being debated in the courts. But those people, somewhere along the lines had to sue of course for it to be brought to the courts, which you've proven. Yes, I was partially wrong about it being "Liberal athiest's child" but not completely wrong because some of the ones you mentioned were athiests.

The basis for my point is still correct. Somewhere along the way, someones poor little feelings were hurt and they sued. Now, I'm not talking about children being FORCED to read Bible Scripture in school. I don't think you should FORCE anyone to read Bible Scripture, anywhere. I also firmly believe that's God's way as well becaue He gave us FREE WILL and we must freely choose to follow Him. But to BAN everyone from having a Christian Prayer in school because a few felt excluded or offended, is ridiculous. They shouldn't have to participate but the rest shouldn't be banned because they don't like it. It IS NOT establishing a government mandated religion!! As I said, there were many didn't participate in the prayers when I did them in school and we didn't tease or harass them.

myfather15
49949
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myfather15 12/22/12 - 02:24 pm
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@grouse

You obviously know nothing about the greatest gift God ever gave mankind, which is FREE WILL. Yes, he allows us to vote in our leaders with our FREE WILL. He doesn't interfere in that because He doesn't HAVE too. He can use whomever is occupying the White House or any other Country for that matter. Most of the time He allows the natural order to take place.

In the aspect of FREE WILL, it's the peoples fault when they are stuck with evil MEN running their Countries and God doesn't interfere with that. It's the peoples fault because they are more like sheep today, following whomever is in charge. It's been proven over and over when the massive number of citizens in any given Country rebel, the evil dictators usually don't retain their power. But when the citizens sit back and allow ANY dictator to rule them, God will allow them to do so. Because HE can use that dictator at any moment, just by changing his countenance, as He did with Pharoah. So, it doesn't matter who is in charge, when God needs something done, it gets done, period. We reap what we sow and these leaders and the people that allow them, will be held accountable one day soon.

With all the evil, insane dictators ruling different Countries in the world, isn't it a miracle in itself that we haven't had nuclear war? Or is it divine intervention? I know what you would say, and I know what I would say so we will just have to disagree. Please don't give me the Mutually Ensured Destruction plan, because that only works with leaders who care about the financial success of their Country. It doesn't work with insane leaders like Ahmadinejad, who believe it's their DUTY to cause war with Israel and the west to bring on the 12th Imam.

burninater
8887
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burninater 12/22/12 - 02:33 pm
3
2
Myfather, everyone is free

Myfather, everyone is free and welcome to have their Christian prayer in school, by themselves, of their own free will. That is not the Establishment problem. The Establishment problem is when a school authority leads children in prayer. Students can say grace before lunch. They can have Bible study groups. They can pray before tests.

Why is it so offensive to some people that individual prayer is allowed but authoritarian, institutional prayer is not? If this is really about individual freedoms, why are people so concerned about prayer instituted by authority?

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