We should judge to avoid sin

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I want to commend Catholic guest columnist Paul Rosenthal for his informative column regarding the election (“Voting your faith in 2012: Social justice, abortion and apples,” Nov. 4), and about some who were rightfully described as “fake” Catholics. One cannot be pro-choice and Catholic.


Yet, many of us witnessed professed Catholic television pundits, during the election, who would perhaps fit into the category of “Catholics in Name Only.”

Joseph O’Connell asserted in his letter (“Writer should ‘judge not’,” Nov. 6) that Mr. Rosenthal was judging another’s soul. Instead, Mr. Rosenthal was rightfully judging another’s actions. Jesus, Himself, calls for this formal judgment on the part of the Church in Matthew 18:15-18.

We cannot judge a person’s state of soul, of course, or their thoughts or motives. Yet, we are to judge one’s actions. We are to make proper judgments to admonish a sinner to encourage him to repent. That is the goal: to save the sinner’s soul. We are to make judgments of behavior, attitudes, and ideas in order to protect our loved-ones and ourselves from danger. We are to avoid people who practice dangerous and sinful behaviors. We cannot avoid them until and unless a judgment has been made that such people are those who the Bible tells us to avoid.

The idea that we are not to judge is a doctrine of error. Satan loves for us to think that we are not to judge! Satan wants us to avoid making judgments. If he can convince us of this, sin can abound without criticism, and we could continue in our sin without accountability.

If Christians would like a glimpse of what it may be like after President Obama completes his assault on our religious liberties, I would encourage all to view the film/DVD For Greater Glory. This true story and inspirational movie depicts how the corrupt Mexican government, from 1926 to 1929, attempted to suppress the religious liberties of Catholics who resided there. The Cristeros family fought back against religious persecution in an uprising and counter-revolution for their love of Christ.

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Bizkit
44241
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Bizkit 11/14/12 - 12:22 pm
2
1
Yeah I remember what a pain

Yeah I remember what a pain in the butt all the jesus freaks use to be-I would ignore or threaten them. But I have softened and now think-wow this person really believes what they say and really believes they are trying to help. I find that interesting. Generally no ones cares. Christianity has never had any appeal to me because of some promise of heaven over hell. I like it is suppose to teach altruism, love not hate-even love your enemies, give not steal, don't judge-yeah christian stink at that one, be slow to anger, find peace during hardship, etc. I don't govt can do the job.

CobaltGeorge
214197
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CobaltGeorge 11/14/12 - 12:41 pm
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Another Religious Debate

No comment from me..peoples words to no where's except to themselves.

effete elitist liberal
3387
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effete elitist liberal 11/14/12 - 12:46 pm
2
2
Retired....

Reading your "credo" above was interesting. On politics, the two of us seem to have very similar opinions as evidenced by numerous postings in this forum. That despite the fact that on religion we disagree fundamentally. I am an atheist most days (heart), but occasionally backslide into agnosticism (head). I could never share beliefs with someone such as RMSHEFF ("Man did not write the Bible") or anyone trying to prove anything by quoting the Bible (I hope you retrain yourself...). So what interests me is that two political liberals (if you do not object to my so characterizing you) can hold such divergent religious views.
I wonder if the same phenomenon is true among political conservatives.
I do not recall any political conservative who posts here who has ever expressed skeptical religious views. I am extending an invitation here right now for any political conservative out there who is either atheistic or agnostic to weigh in. Is there much more religious diversity among political liberals than among conservatives? Bet there is....

Bizkit
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Bizkit 11/14/12 - 01:00 pm
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Both actually. LOL. I can

Both actually. LOL. I can relate to your lack of faith. My parents didn't have it, nor my siblings, I did marry a women of faith. I come from a long line of scientist so sprituality was nonexistent. I think the seed was probably planted in my deep in my brain by an african-american nanny who raised me. She was always talkin' to Jesus and quotin' the bible. To be honest I thought she was a nut-but I loved her deeply (she was like my mom-taught me to ride a bike, etc). In my later 40s the latent gene suddenly resurrected-probably mercury poisoning which will activate latent genes-hee,hee,hee. Makes sense huh.

effete elitist liberal
3387
Points
effete elitist liberal 11/14/12 - 01:16 pm
3
1
Bizkit

Enjoyable post, I must say. Interesting you should say "long line of scientist so sprituality was nonexistent...." I have read many, many opinions about the relationship between science and religion. While the question is a complex one, I do think science is at base hostile to religion, at least religion's capacity to describe the physical world. What is undeniable is that history shows a steady retreat of religion as science has developed. Among reasoning individuals, any religious explanation
of the physical world has retreated nearly to the point of being able to claim only that science cannot explain what existed before the Big Bang.
Religion as a source of explaining the physical world "has come a long way, baby"... backwards!

Bizkit
44241
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Bizkit 11/14/12 - 01:42 pm
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I don't see the bible as a

I don't see the bible as a science book (explainin' the physical world but spiritual world) explaining the universe but a book about homo sapiens humanity. Different domains. Both have a place. Religions did evolve. Plenty of scientist of faith-Gregor Mendel, Francis Collins, Theodosius Dobzhansky, etc. Their faith didn't blind their mind to science or vice versa. But science is a process trying to describe the physical world and we keep on testing whatever we find to see if it can be falsified.

palmetto1008
9782
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palmetto1008 11/14/12 - 02:10 pm
2
5
Judge me all you want, Ms.
Unpublished

Judge me all you want, Ms. Beckworth. Just don't be surprised at what you might reap in return.

myfather15
59559
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myfather15 11/14/12 - 03:01 pm
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@RA

So, you believe in God and that I will not attempt to refute, because that is between Him and you. I also like your mentioning of FREE WILL, because that is the most important aspect when talking about God.

But, since you said you believe, I do want to ask you a question. If you believe in God, I'm assuming a single God and not numerous. Do you not believe the SINGLE God would have a single TRUTH and some how, someway, get that Truth out to the people? Do you not think that SINGLE God would write a letter to His Children, advising them how to live a more peaceful and productive life? The Bible covers everything from planting of gardens, advice on which meats to eat to have a healthier body, advice on divorce, advice on how to know if someone is a false teacher of His word, advice on how to treat other people, rules and laws, ect. The Bible has numerous things that are JUST advice, that MEN will claim are sinful. But the key word there is MEN, not God.

For example, I had a discussion with my own mother about eating pork. She said it was a sin and I told her it wasn't and it's just an unclean animal and God is telling us we shouldn't eat or or we may get sick. She then told me "God said it's an abomination to Him." I had to correct her, in Leviticus 11 when referring to meat to eat, God refers to them as "Abomination to YOU." It doesn't say to Him!! He is just trying to tell us what to eat that will keep us healthy. He isn't saying eating pork is a sin that will send you to hell, thats ridiculous.

Thats just one small example when there are many that could be given. All I'm saying is that if you believe in God, I would think you would believe He would send us a letter, advising us on how to live during this flesh age. There is HIS TRUTH out there and I promise you, it isn't close to what most people believe. But that too is no new thing, God Himself told warned us that His Truth wouldn't be taught very much (Amos 8:11 and many other places). What did they do to Christ? He taught the truth didn't He? What did they do to most of the prophets and disciples? They imprisoned and killed them. The Truth of God's word is NOT popular, not only with hard line liberals, but with MOST CHURCHES as well!! Most Churches don't teach Truth either because they are afraid of offending someone and losing their precious congregation.

If you could read the Bible in the original manuscripts (Ancient Hebrew, Chaldean and Greek) it would become so much more clear. So, it takes a little work to find the truth. If you honestly seek the SINGLE TRUTH and stop caring what this pastor or that paster says, then I believe anyone can and would find it. But it does take a little work and an INTEREST in God's Truth, to actually find it. But isn't that the same with everything if life? If it's worth having, it's worth WORKING for.

Just like myself, I was born and raised in a traditional Church but I always knew there was more than I was being taught. I sought it out and when I found it, I WON'T let go. Because it is so clear and simple. MAN (meaning mankind) has confused it and twisted it, God hasn't. Seek and ye shall find. The TRUTH, There is ONE GOD and there is ONE TRUTH.

paulbaughman28
215
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paulbaughman28 11/14/12 - 05:27 pm
2
7
OK....here are a few facts

OK....here are a few facts that you Christian extremeists deem fit to ignore.

1) The fact that your bible was written by a man IS a misconception. In fact, it was written by many men that were sent by a pagan emperor to compile stories from a religion that he was fascinated by. He then proceeded to cut out the parts he didn't like with a knife.

2) Your bible states that Jesus said something to the effect of "Let those without sin cast the first stone." Pretty sure that counts as judging.

3) Jesus said for you to love your neighbors as you love yourself. This means everyone...EVERYONE. You cannot call yourself a Christian without following the teachings of Christ.

4) Jesus was not born on December 25th, so why do I HAVE to call it Christmas? The original title of this holiday was Yule. It was 12 days long. Calm your nerves about it.

5) YOU BELIEVE there is only one god. That's YOUR business. I believe in 12 gods. That's MY business. If you feel the need to go and preach the word of your god, that's fine. I'm not going to be disrespectful when you do, but be respectful when I decline your offer to join your cult.

Have a great day.

InChristLove
22487
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InChristLove 11/14/12 - 07:55 pm
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1
http://www.str.org/site/News2

http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6068

For those who doubt the authenticity of the Bible, please take the time to read this article, especially the last section titled "The Verdict". The article is a little long but holds alot of information and simple explanations to help explain how the Bible (New Testament) has been textually verified to 99.5% accurracy. If you are not seeking truth, then you'll find this rather boring so move to the next post.

specsta
8376
Points
specsta 11/14/12 - 05:48 pm
5
3
The Biggest Mistake Christians Make

If you love God and love your neighbor, there isn't much room left for judgement and condemnation.

A relationship with God is personal. There are no cookie-cutter principals that determine the intricacies of that relationship. Christians get into trouble when they try to force their own personal relationship with God into someone else's life. Everyone is different. What's good for you might be horrible for me. Let each one live their own life and work out their own salvation.

Alphonsus
46
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Alphonsus 11/14/12 - 05:50 pm
6
2
Judging

Aren't the liberals who are criticizing this person's letter to the editor judging it? And yet they're trying to tell us we can't judge?

Talk about double standards.

InChristLove
22487
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InChristLove 11/14/12 - 06:02 pm
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1
Paul, do you have proof that

Edited ***

Paul, do you have proof that the Bible was written by many men sent by a pagan emperor to compile stories? Also, the words spoken by Jesus “Let those without sin cast the first stone” is not judging. It was a statement made to a group of sinners whom Christ knew all of them had sin in their lives (sin is sin, there is not big sin and little sin). This statement was not about judging but self inspection and condemnation.

Yes, Jesus says to love your neighbor as yourself. Just what is your definition of love. I’d wager your definition and Christ’s definition are two totally different meanings. If I see a stranger about to step into a hole, get hit by a car, eat something rotten, and I just stand by and watch, is that love? If commanded by Christ, we are to tell others about His love and the way to eternal life, but we keep His gift a secret, is that love?

As for December 25th, we call it Christmas, you call it what you wish….not all Christians are in an uproar about the name.

As for #5, it’s a deal….

faithson
6164
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faithson 11/14/12 - 06:51 pm
1
1
how about some agreement...

can we all agree upon the sovereignty of the Universal Father. In agreeing upon that, can we also agree upon the 'brotherhood' of man. It is not rocket science, just simple 'faith'.

RMSHEFF
24011
Points
RMSHEFF 11/14/12 - 06:52 pm
4
3
Judging

Matthew 18 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector”

I guess you guys think Jesus had it wrong again!

myfather15
59559
Points
myfather15 11/14/12 - 07:34 pm
1
1
@RMSHEFF

Matt: 18 (King James Version) reads different that this. It reads if a brother TRESPASS against THEE, the take in to him in alone. Trespassing against an individual might not be SIN as you would think. For quick reference, I love the KING JAMES BIBLE ONLINE (kingjamesbibleonline.org), you can look up a scripture even if you only remember one word of the scripture. It will give you every scripture that contains that word.

People like paulbaughman's comments aren't even worth a response. They want to talk about respect but can't muster enough respect for those he disagrees with to be decent towards them and not make fun of their faith.

myfather15
59559
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myfather15 11/14/12 - 07:45 pm
3
1
@Paul

If you're going to called someone a name in an attempt to put them down, at least get the name right. You misspelled extremists.

myfather15
59559
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myfather15 11/14/12 - 07:45 pm
2
1
Some people wouldn't know

Some people wouldn't know "Facts" if it reached up and smacked them in their unintelligent mouth. Yet, they will use that word "Facts" as if what they are saying is indisputable. Of course, this comment isn't aimed at anyone on here. Wouldn't want to get reported.

Retired Army
17513
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Retired Army 11/14/12 - 08:11 pm
3
0
EEL writes: "So what

EEL writes: "So what interests me is that two political liberals (if you do not object to my so characterizing you) can hold such divergent religious views."

Simple, A primary and very attractive tenant of true Liberals=True Tolerance. I simply believe that there is an inner light in human beings that does separate us from other life forms. Call it conscience, morals, Spiritual or whatever. Liberals do not automatically damn others to Hell out of primal fear. We are open to new ideas and tolerant of old.

Now, that galls the Hell out of a lot of the old conservatives, just as it did with the Pharisee's of JC's time. I come from a position of Christ being the greatest Liberal of all time and many fine men and women, not just Jesus, were negated, demeaned and eventually slaughtered by fearful Conservatives in any given time period for new or progressive thinking.

Had you or I attempted this conversation publicly as little as 400 years ago, torture and death would surely have been our fate. 200 years ago, social ostracism, stocks and/or public flogging were more the norm and even as little as 50 years ago, unfitness for public service in most of America.

Serious and unbiased students of history, see this unfolding progressiveness in any religious belief system. Truth be told, given the respective ages of Christianity and Islam, I see Islam at much the same crossroads that Christians faced when Martin Luther nailed his screed to the door 700 years ago.

That's why I am such a sunny guy. I can see the inevitable march of progress. It might not happen in my lifetime or even those of my precious grand children, but the wish of the God of my understanding cannot and will not be denied. And that is simply He/She/it has great and grand plans for mankind. I firmly believe that and no one else has to. I have free will and it is a wonderful gift. To keep it I must allow you yours.

The truly misguided are those that through fear of loss of their own limited faith, would coerce others to strengthen their beliefs. As if somehow they had the power to force the issue.

There's an old story that goes around in my fellowship of the Spirit.

Seems a fellow who had lived a good and moral life despite struggles and strife passed on and presently found himself at the proverbial Pearly Gates. Ol' Pete the Keeper of the gate, wanting the man to feel at home asked him what religion he wished to be seated with. Well, the old guy was truthful and said he had never really practiced any religion in his life.

Pete, wanting the man to feel at home, said he'd give him a tour of the place and let him make his own choice on where to settle in.

Down the hall they went. The first door was filled with folks on their knees, fiddling with beads and praying in unison. These are our Catholic's says Pete and the fellow said this didn't look right to him, so on they went. Next was a room with four guys running around obviously searching for something. What's going on here asked the man. Pete tells him these are our Episcopalians and when four of them get together they look for the fifth. Nope says the fellow and they adjourn to the next room. Now here are a bunch of decent looking clean cut folks with perfect haircuts and damned mean looking faces. "What's this all about" asks the newcomer. Well Pete says, these are our Baptists and they're mad as hell cause the Catholics got in.

Kinda sums it up for me.

InChristLove
22487
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InChristLove 11/14/12 - 08:30 pm
5
1
On a biblical definition of

On a biblical definition of trespass....."Trespass" means to know exactly what God expects of us, exactly where the line is that He has drawn in the sand, but to willfully and deliberately step over the line. (Sounds like disobediance to me and that is a sin) The truth of the matter is that often we are not ignorant of God's will - - usually we know exactly what God expects of us, but we choose to ignore His words.

Thankfully, Jesus will forgive us of our deliberate sins if we repent and turn to Him! In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace (Ephesians 1:7)

Myfather15, could you please give us an example where Trespass would not be a sin? Just trying to get a clear understanding of how you define the two. Hebrew definition is guilt/rebellion and Greek is to miss the mark or deviate from what is right. I'm having a hard time seeing the as different.

RMSHEFF
24011
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RMSHEFF 11/14/12 - 08:47 pm
4
1
MYFATHER 15, I too read the

MYFATHER 15, I too read the King James however, my point was to convince those who believe Gods word precludes judgement of others. Matthew 18 is a guide on discipline inside the Church body for brother who fall into sin and is a process which can lead to removing this person from the fellowship. This, unfortunately, is a practice no longer used in most Churches. We are to judge the act of sin and God judges the sinner. Our message is clear, to call those who will listen to repentance, unfortunately many are blinded to their sin and don't think they need a savior.

RMSHEFF
24011
Points
RMSHEFF 11/14/12 - 09:43 pm
1
0
In Christ Love

I would agree that trespass mentioned in Matthew 18 is a sin because it could result in being cut off from the Church body. A very serious situation however, I think what MyFATHER15 may be referring to is trespass in the broad sense of the word may mean to offend a brother. For example eating meat offered to idols would offend a weaker brother but the act itself is not sinful. Clearly in Matthew 18 it is referring to a serious ongoing sin.

galaxygrl
1444
Points
galaxygrl 11/14/12 - 11:47 pm
3
2
Judging

Funny this should come up because I was just thinking about it.
John 8:7 “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her" We are not to judge, we are all sinners.
Matthew 6:12 Foregive us our debt, as we forgive our debtors.
Matthew 7:12 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
It is not a Christian's responsibilty to "save" anyone, only God can do that. Part is a mystery and we can not understand it because Isaiah 55:9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." tells us that we are not in full knowledge and God makes the call. We are to come along side and help others, live a Christ like life and share our faith so that others may want to follow him. We should all try to live like Christ and let him do the rest. We are here to glorify and praise him. It is our responsibility to pray for them and live out our lives in such a way they would want to be like us. That is our calling.

Alphonsus
46
Points
Alphonsus 11/15/12 - 12:31 am
3
1
I disagree

I disagree, galaxygirl. That isn't correct. If someone we knew was an atheist, would we just pray for their conversion, or would we attempt to convert them? The notion that we're supposed to just sit back and do nothing is false.

As for judging, we can and SHOULD judge the ACTIONS of others. That's what we do when we vote, that's what judges do everyday, that's what mothers do when they judge their children, and so on.

galaxygrl
1444
Points
galaxygrl 11/15/12 - 12:56 am
2
2
Disagree

Alphonsus,
You may disagree, God's grace is sufficent for me. He has forgiven me my sins and I am to love the sinners and show them the grace that was extended to me. I am a believer in grace and mercy and have seen it played out in real live. It works, it is our duty and it is Christ like. I believe we should acknowledge sin but not become so judgemental that we lose sight of our calling. May peace be with you.

Chris 232
91
Points
Chris 232 11/15/12 - 01:03 am
0
1
Welcome to the Dark Ages
Unpublished

I am so glad Obama retained the presidency last week. After reading this editorial and the hordes of right wing, god-fearing posts, I feel like our president is the only thing keeping us from sliding into the dark ages. Seriously!

specsta
8376
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specsta 11/15/12 - 01:49 am
0
2
Wise Words

galaxygirl, I wish there were more Christians like you...it would be a much better world.

InChristLove
22487
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InChristLove 11/15/12 - 07:40 am
1
0
“Do not judge by appearances,

“Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.” John 7:24 If we were not to judge at all, then why would he tell us to judge righteously? John 4:1 tells us to test the spirit (that is judging/discernment)

The problem with people quoting Matthew 7:12 is that they only quote the first part but leave out the last. Jesus is commenting on how to judge in this verse, not forbidding it. We are not to judge someone's soul but we are commanded to judge someone's action. Without condemnation I might add.

We can not discern the hearts of others but we can judge actions to discern evil from righteousness.

The issue with judging or not to judge, always comes down to the proper meaning of judging and what to judge.

galaxygirl, you have a very gentle spirit and you are correct that we can not save anyone, that is God's job, but if you go through life without judging (discerning) between evil and righteousness then how do you know if something is a sin or not? How do you know whether to pray for someone or not if you make no judgement on that person's need? We make judgements every day whether we want to or not, the question is, are we judging their actions or are we judging the person.

myfather15
59559
Points
myfather15 11/15/12 - 09:14 am
0
0
@ICL

If your neighbour is playing loud music and is disturbing you, do you believe that is a sin againt your soul and could end you up in hell? Shouldn't you go speak with them respectful the first time and work it out between yourselves? This is a trespass against YOU and not against their SOUL and very existence (In my opinion). But, I've stated before, there are many beliefs of the Traditional Churches I don't agree with. Yes, I believe ANY sin (Beside blasphemy againt the holy spirit) can be forgiven if one asks for forgiveness with a sincere regret for committing the sin. Christ died on the cross for that price. But I don't believe every sin is equal and you won't convince me different. Even the Bible calls for different punishments for offenses committed during this flesh age. But the ultimate penalty is up to God and NOT mankind.

Recently I've had several neighborhood kids, cutting through a corner of my yard while going to the next street over. So much as they were starting to wear out a trail through my grass. I went out and spoke with them and asked them to stop cutting through my yard because it was killing my grass. In the last couple weeks they have walked completely around. Trespass is over against me after I spoke to them about it. Do you believe they were committing sin that could place them in danger of losing their very soul, if they don't repent to God? Well, I don't. I believe they were just doing something simply wrong and I spoke to them with respect as Matt 18 is talking about. No, I don't believe everything is a trespass against God and some things are just trespasses against each other. Just as eating pork isn't a trespass against God and I challenge anyone to prove different. The King James Version Bible says it's an abomination to YOU, not God. Meaning, eating pork (an unclean animal) isn't good for YOU. But many people will claim it's a sin to eat pork. I have no interest in what MEN say are sins, I will listen to the Father and His Son.

myfather15
59559
Points
myfather15 11/15/12 - 09:27 am
0
0
@Retired Army

Much of your last post I respect but I can't agree with some. I will just point out that I trully believe you've probably never heard the honest and True Word of God taught, which is clear to me in some of your posts. Because the Truth isn't taught very much in society, period. The sadducees and pharisees were certainly not conservatives. They were false teachers and there is a huge difference. They were the ones spoke of in Revelations 2:9 and 3:9, when speaking of the two Churches God found no fault in.

Those two Churches had one thing in common. They knew those who CLAIM to be of God and are not but are of the synagogue of Satan. If someones Churches doesn't teach who these people are, they aren't feeding their flock properly. We MUST be able to recognize those who claim to be of Christ, and those who actually are of Christ. It's actually just common sense and must be utilized to know the difference.

But, to be honest, I do believe Christ shares SOME beliefs with both parties. IF, the compassion the left has for the poor is HONEST, then I KNOW Christ shared that. But I don't believe the compassion they CLAIM to have for the poor is genuine. I believe they couldn't care less about the poor, I believe it's just a smart political tool they use because who wouldn't vote for someone who wants to take care of the poor.

But, if you believe Christ would associate with anyone wanting to kill unborn children while in the womb, you're sadly mistaken. If you believe he would want something completely against God's natural order (Homosexual marriage) legalized, I think you're sadly mistaken. But we shall find out exactly how Christ feels about these things very, VERY soon. Watch Israel, and watch very closely. Be Watchmen!!

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