Keep church, state separate

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Some have noticed there is a newly formed local chapter of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. People have the right to be concerned about societal changes, and those feelings are to be respected. But do we really want to see theocracy be a part of governance?

The Constitution ensures every American can observe his or her religion, but clearly states it will not seek to establish any particular faith. This has served our country well for more than 200 years. No one is seeking to interfere with an individual’s private and personal choice of faith. But it seems unfortunate when a candidate running for the highest office in our land does not appear to appreciate America’s long-standing principle to separate the two.

Hopefully individuals and groups will think carefully about this question. It could promote a dialogue we need to have.

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palmetto1008
9782
Points
palmetto1008 05/03/12 - 12:33 pm
5
1
@jane18 at 11:24. I am
Unpublished

@jane18 at 11:24.
I am clueless why anyone would call you crazy.

InChristLove
22491
Points
InChristLove 05/03/12 - 12:56 pm
3
3
TParty, I agree, slavery is

TParty, I agree, slavery is slavery and no where did I say it was okay in my post.

How can God be wrong on slavery? He never ordained the practice, only set guidelines on how you should treat someone who was a slave because man created it, not God.

God never ordained divorce, murder, rape, or any of the other atrocities created by man but do you really think that if God said "don't do it" man would listen? Heck, if man listened to God, none of these atrocities would have never even came to be.

I'm afraid your misunderstanding comes from not understanding the Word of God in it's entirety and gleening scripture to support your misguided point of view. You can pulled a thousand verses out of context in the Bible and make it state what you want, but it doesn't make it true. You can't sugarcoat or twist scripture....then it becomes a lie.

howcanweknow
2307
Points
howcanweknow 05/03/12 - 01:05 pm
2
2
God did do away with slavery.

God did do away with slavery. Paul's letters make it very clear that there are no more slaves / masters in Christ. All are equal. From the time of Christ on, slavery was dissolved by Christianity -- but, unfortunately, not by man. Don't blame God's word for man not obeying it -- or attempting to use the Bible to justify bad behavior. We have SEPARATION of church and state, remember?

But again, when has mankind every truly sought to live by Christ's teachings? Maybe we should try it sometime? It's not as if this current philosophy of gov't and modern culture we have are really lighting things up for us, are they?

howcanweknow
2307
Points
howcanweknow 05/03/12 - 01:25 pm
2
2
Never defending slavery, of

Never defending slavery, of course, but you have to remember the historical context as well.

During biblical times slaves in the homes of well-off Romans often had it pretty good. Their standard of living was better than most all of the "common folks". No, they had no freedom. But, living conditions were often far better than the free people trying to scratch out a living from the land, and they may have actually preferred such slavery. Moral of the story: You can't just pull out verses from the Bible without knowing the context in which they were written.

usafveteran
34
Points
usafveteran 05/03/12 - 01:54 pm
2
2
When advocates for "no

When advocates for "no religion", he or she is advocating a religion nonetheless--albeit one without belief in a Supreme being--and their values and judgements will be based on such. While our Founding Fathers did not wish to have an established state religion, they did allow "for the free exercise thereof" for all citizens. Unfortunately, that has been jeopardized recently by certain activist judges and official mandates.

my.voice
6298
Points
my.voice 05/03/12 - 02:05 pm
1
2
There is NO separation of

There is NO separation of Church and State. Show it to me if you believe it to be so. Its simply not factual. But say it enough times and people will believe it.

Retired Army
17513
Points
Retired Army 05/03/12 - 03:21 pm
2
3
CDR don't worry too much

CDR don't worry too much about that double post, it gave us a chance to give you two thumbs up. Now, I'll do my best to help reach that 100 goal by drawing out the "true" believers.

Someone went off on a tangent about the constitution only mentioning churches and not houses of worship. Maybe the Founders didn't see other religions as the threat that the multi-fractured Christian sects are/were.

These days in the age of Mega-churches and the "Prosperity Jesus" syndrome where lucre is the final proof of ones worthiness to society at large I can double down on the righteousness and wisdom of the founders religion clause. Thank God for it.

To the pounder's of a particular brand of "you're headed for Hell if you don't believe as we do" religion I say foof! God is bigger than any man-made religion and He/She/It knows it.(yes, Virginia there is One) and I'm just smart enough to know that too.

As far as the Christian Morals bunch, where in Hades did you get the idea that Christians are the only one with Morals? Every religion of any stature at all can be boiled down to Love and Service to others. You don't have the corner on Morals. You may have the arrogance to think you do but you are wrong.

I believe it was Ben Franklin(certainly no font of Christian rectitude)who had the astuteness to observe that ANY religion relying upon state support is a mighty poor religion indeed.

Lastly for the War On Xmas Types let me give you a little secret-it doesn't exist. You can even come to our Christmas drop in this year. My wife would love to have you.

howcanweknow
2307
Points
howcanweknow 05/03/12 - 03:35 pm
3
1
RA, agree with some of your

RA, agree with some of your post. But, need to clarify your misconceptions with the rest.

The "Prosperity Jesus" idea is not very biblical. I mean, Jesus himself was pretty poor. He even tells us he didn't even have a place to lay his head. Judas was his "treasurer", and we know how that ended up (worse than Madoff). So, to think that prosperity is a sign of spirituality is certainly not biblical. Not that God cannot bless you with wealth. That's his choice. But, there is no direct correlation between health/wealth and heavenliness. I agree completely.

"Christian morals?" Frankly, that's an oxymoron. Christians above all other folks know that their "morals" are pretty useless. Isaiah said it very clearly when he wrote that his "righteousness" (to use the term loosely) was nothing but "filthy rags". Ditto for Christians. If Christians were "moral", there'd be no need to a Savior. Now all that being said, there is a definite place for the moral commands in God's word. Those are high and mighty, and are to be emulated by Christians (although we miss the mark on these standards far too often).

One correction however: Christianity cannot be boiled down to love and service to others. If you remember the 2 big commands of Christianity, "love and service" to others is actually #2. #1 is is loving God with all you got. How do you "love" God? Jesus tells us very directly: "Obey Him." Full stop. You can't run around disregarding the moral commands in the New Testament and claim to be a Christian. Just doesn't wash. That's the worst hypocrisy. So, sure love and service to others is important, but is actually the #2 command. So, please don't confuse Christianity with worldy religions. It's very different. Oil and water in so many ways.

Jesus is quoted very clear as saying that if you do not believe in Him as God and Savior, then you will not spend eternity with him in heaven. Not my word, but His. If you want to look Jesus in the face and tell Him his words are nothing but "foof", Jesus gives you that right (at least for now). But, you might think how those words might go over when you are standing before the great judgment throne looking into His eyes. I doubt there'll be much foofing then. At the least, I'm certainly not willing to take that chance. Are you?

Bruno
780
Points
Bruno 05/03/12 - 04:04 pm
3
2
It doesn't really matter that

It doesn't really matter that you are getting "peeved" at those who hold an opposing viewpoint, cdr. Placing a nativity scene on a public lawn is simply not the government establishing a religion. Taking government money does not mean that you have to set aside everything you hold as morally repugnant or even what you disagree with.
Simply stating your views on a subject is not "forcing" them on someone.

howcanweknow
2307
Points
howcanweknow 05/03/12 - 04:45 pm
1
1
"It is impossible to govern

"It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, our religion and morality are the indispensable supporters. Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that our national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." George Washington, 1796 (Farewell Address)

Bizkit
47830
Points
Bizkit 05/03/12 - 05:15 pm
0
0
I can appreciate so many

I can appreciate so many people being hesitant with religions. I too never understood the attraction and when I read the bible I just didn't relate, as well as it seemed draconian. Reading Joe Campbell's the Power of Myths really made me appreciate the power of myths over human history and the contribution to art, science, culture, etc. It is easy not to believe-that is why it is called faith rather than belief. I had an experience that really set me on a spiritual journey and I find my faith satisfying in a spiritual sense-not intellectual sense (another domain). I have never read any book that didn't have errors (Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Evolutionary biology, etc) in it so the Bible has errrors is a reflection of human error. And the same holds true for human logic-it gave rise to religions and science-that's baffling at times I know. I am not looking for heaven, eternal life, wealth, no problems, but I am looking for peace (in any situation) and I do like helping others (I was so selfish most of my life and I find giving and sacrifice unbelievably rewarding-although it doesn't seem logical). I do think that we have a spiritual nature (I didn't believe that for almost 50 years) and that seems evident in ritual burials in early man, and peoples preoccupation with ghosts, etc. Still don't believe in ghosts, aliens, bigfoot, or there is intelligent life on earth. LOL.:)Objectively I still posit the strength in religions is the teaching of altruism-it isn't our nature and this is an organized method with stealth. It isn't about right and wrong its about relationships with each other and our God. I like relationships and if you are a smokin' hot babe give me a call-just kiddin. So much for being a good christian. In my defense I do have internet tourette's syndrome-there is no cure. My fingers just take off with obscenities-like the King's Speech. #$%#$%#$@$#$#$$^

carcraft
36116
Points
carcraft 05/03/12 - 07:47 pm
3
2
The New Testament does

The New Testament does condemn those involved in slave trading, 1 Timothy 1:10 condemns “man stealers” i.e. those involved in the slave trade. None of the Christian bashers or those who don’t think Christian morality should influence government have taken up the challenge of Wilberforce. Wilberforce was a wealthy, well connected (friend of the English Prime minister) politically astute politician who worked and was the point of the spear that ended slavery in England and the transport of slaves by British ships. Wilberforce enlightened the World and helped end the terrible practice in the western world. Now if all religions work for good as has asserted why did the practice of Karma create the untouchables in Indian society? Why did a CHRISTIAN woman named Mother Teresa make it her life work to aid those poor unfortunates? Why is slavery still allowed in Muslim coountries? Why are the decsendants of the butcher class in Japan still discriminated against? If all religions are equal in moral value and commit service to others these questions would not exist!

carcraft
36116
Points
carcraft 05/03/12 - 07:53 pm
3
2
One of Wilberforce's mentors

One of Wilberforce's mentors was John Newton author of Amazing Grace. Newton was involved in the slave trade until he had an encounter with Jesus and repented of his sin. Christianity is a relationship with God and not a "religion"!

carcraft
36116
Points
carcraft 05/03/12 - 08:01 pm
3
1
My other question to those

My other question to those who bash Christianity is this, since Wilberforce used his theology and moral perspective gained through the theology of Christianity was he wrong to try to force his moral view on the Government of England to end slavery?

Bizkit
47830
Points
Bizkit 05/03/12 - 08:02 pm
2
1
Good posits carcraft.

Good posits carcraft. Ignatius of Loyola was also transformed, and MLKjr attested to his faith being a driving force in his peaceful demonstrations. In Islam you become a martyr by killing your enemies because of your faith, whereas in christianity you become a martyr by being killed by your enemies because of your faith.

DMPerryJr
1698
Points
DMPerryJr 05/04/12 - 12:46 am
1
0
Back before the Reagan years

Back before the Reagan years and the 30 years of great economy that created a lot of first generation wealth among Southern Baby Boomers, it seemed as if the income gap was less of a chasm. Nowadays the old Southern (fromerly) poor folk have forgotten from whence they came. It really is a sad. I have seen families ship their kids off to foreign reform school just to save face among their newly minted"rich" Boomer peers. Sad.I find it odd that these folks seem to identify with 1%ers moreso than their own people. If they knew any super wealthy people, they would know that in the eyes of those folks they are just as low down as those they refer to as ghetto trash.I sometimes wonder of we had a time machine to go back to the days of Jesus Christ, who would be the Pharisees and who would be the disciples.

DMPerryJr
1698
Points
DMPerryJr 05/04/12 - 12:49 am
1
0
Our own Savior was born

Our own Savior was born homeless and died homeless and pursued as a fugitive too. As a Catholic concerned with Social Justice, I sometimes wonder what book others read from or what they think about when they think of God in the flesh.

carcraft
36116
Points
carcraft 05/04/12 - 04:50 am
1
0
I think of Jesus leaving his

I think of Jesus leaving his throne and crown, emptying himself of his glory, putting on the flesh of human frailty and giving imself to show us how to live. That life included being responsible, having compassion on those around you instead of shooting them, honoring the body God gave you instead of abusing drugs and Lastly Jesus never used his humble beginings as an excuse to be ugly or for hurting others! Jesus never demanded the Romans exhibit social justice and didn't expect it. He did honor the Roman Centurian for his faith and told other Roman soldiers to be content with their wages, didn't tell them to drop their swords. As to judging who would be the pharisees are yo refering to those who cloke their greed for power in "compassion for the poor". Are you refering to those who say they care about the poor but their purse strings are drawn tight and their hearts are cold when it involves their own money being given from a generous heart to the poor?

howcanweknow
2307
Points
howcanweknow 05/04/12 - 08:55 am
0
0
I see someone voted down the

I see someone voted down the words of George Washington. That is very revealing. Shows that some folks are very out of touch with the principles upon which American was founded and which made us the greatest nation in the world.

howcanweknow
2307
Points
howcanweknow 05/04/12 - 09:05 am
0
0
Something else that is very

Something else that is very revealing.... the chronic complainers on here focus on Christianity. Hardly ever is there a disparaging word against Islam or any other religion -- despite the fact that murder, wife-beating, and terrorism are associated with Islam. I mean, just this week Muslims murdered Christians conducting a worship service in Nigeria. Just slaughtered them down like animals. Did this make the national media? Hardly. Did our atheistic / liberal posters on here even care? Oh, they'll rant and rail against all things Christian, but when non-Christians commit atrocities, these folks tend to get a bye -- or are at least overlooked.

I really get tired of the anti-Christian rhetoric clothed as high and mighty humanism or liberalism. It's just a cover for their hate of Christianity, specifically. Pure and simple.

JustAJoe
25
Points
JustAJoe 05/04/12 - 07:09 pm
0
0
Thanks cdr4500, strange name

Thanks cdr4500, strange name but a GOOD POST

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