Republican tax offer silly

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The blame game is officially on. In a letter to The Washington Post, the six Republican members of the supercommittee wrote to blame the Democratic six for the failure to arrive at a compromise.

In it, they stated their two-part offer. First, they would direct the full Congress to overhaul the income tax code, providing a number of suggestions that they said would increase tax revenue by billions. Second, they demanded that the Bush tax cuts become permanent.

This is downright silly, as no one can say what Congress would end up doing, if anything, on revising our tax code. If the Dems had agreed, the only thing certain would be that President Obama would not be free to let those cuts expire. This is, of course, just what the Republicans want, to serve their wealthy contributors. The Democratic six had no alternative but to reject this phony proposal.

It would be more logical for the president to announce that the Bush cuts in their entirety will be allowed to expire at the end of 2012, while at the same time directing Congress in early 2013 to cut the taxes of those making less than, say, $100,000 per year to what they are now under the Bush cuts. I find it hard to believe that Republicans in Congress would reject that step, since cutting taxes seems second nature to them.

I write this as one who pays no more than 15 percent tax on a big chunk of my income – that on dividends. The only way to get rid of that sweet deal may be to let the cuts expire in their entirety. It is grossly unfair that those who work for a living are taxed at rates far higher than those sitting in their easy chairs.

Victor J. Reilly

Aiken, S.C.

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TParty
6003
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TParty 11/29/11 - 04:38 pm
0
0
I just read that "Senate

I just read that "Senate Democrats are pressing ahead on a plan to cut in half every worker's payroll taxes next year — paid for by a 3.25 percent tax surcharge on the very wealthy."

What do people think about that?

Chillen
17
Points
Chillen 11/29/11 - 04:49 pm
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Sounds like a liberal's

Sounds like a liberal's redistribution of wealth fantasy tparty - if you know what I mean.

Of course I'm sure the "very wealthy" means everyone making over $250,000 per year. Or will they lower it to $100,000? Wealth redistribution has no limits.

Newsflash. If they'd cut out the corruption in the government, stop bailing out bankers, stop giving our tax money to their contributors, stop engaging us in continual wars, stop paying people not to work, stop paying for everyone's healthcare, then our average tax rate could be about 5% per citizen. That sounds MUCH better to me.

harley_52
23424
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harley_52 11/29/11 - 04:57 pm
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burninater.... What

burninater....

What percentage of workers pay payroll taxes? Trying to follow your position. Are you saying that 85% pay payroll taxes and agreeing that about 50% don't pay income taxes?

Or what?

Carleton Duvall
6305
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Carleton Duvall 11/29/11 - 05:12 pm
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Harley_52, sometimes in a

Harley_52, sometimes in a discussion you realize that you have come to a dead end. This is one of those times. I am sure that burninater knows what he is talking about But as a former CFO that had income tax responsibilty for my company I cannot for the life of me understand what he is trying to convey. Sometimes the English language fails us.

harley_52
23424
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harley_52 11/29/11 - 05:18 pm
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scoobydo, I think he's trying

scoobydo, I think he's trying to make the point that most illegal immigrants pay taxes just like citizens do. I see liberals trying to make that claim often. But then I see liberals making all sorts of claims, many of which aren't based on facts or even reasoned opinion.

I'm just trying to understand.

harley_52
23424
Points
harley_52 11/29/11 - 05:27 pm
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0
scoobydo, It seems to me the

scoobydo, It seems to me the term "payroll taxes" used to include all taxes deducted and paid from the payroll. Income taxes, FICA, FUTA, SUTA, Medicare and any other taxes deducted from your paycheck were all included under the term "payroll taxes."

I could be wrong about this, but I think differentiating income taxes from "payroll taxes" is a liberal way of obfuscating the facts when people aren't aware of their newly minted definitions.

Carleton Duvall
6305
Points
Carleton Duvall 11/29/11 - 05:29 pm
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There is another point that I

There is another point that I would like to make concerning payroll taxes. Although called taxes, social security and medicare' Taxes" are not really taxes. Those taxes should referred to as retirement contribution or health care insurance because, in reality, that is what they are.

bjphysics
36
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bjphysics 11/29/11 - 05:34 pm
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burninater: “…the 50% not

burninater: “…the 50% not paying taxes is only true if you count children, the elderly, and the destitute. The real number among working households is ~15%.”

Source please.

Carleton Duvall
6305
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Carleton Duvall 11/29/11 - 05:35 pm
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Tparty, great idea . Soak

Tparty, great idea . Soak those rich suckers. LOL

Carleton Duvall
6305
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Carleton Duvall 11/29/11 - 05:38 pm
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Bj said burninater: “…the 50%

Bj said

burninater: “…the 50% not paying taxes is only true if you count children, the elderly, and the destitute. The real number among working households is ~15%.”

Source please.
My response: Out of the wild blue yonder.

burninater
9605
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burninater 11/29/11 - 05:41 pm
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Alright, let me try this

Alright, let me try this again. There is a line going around that 50% of Americans don't pay taxes. We can presume that this refers to taxes on income, because everyone pays sales, or fuel, or property, or etc. Agreed?

Now if you want to make the claim that payroll taxes are not a tax on income, then fine, the claim that about 50% pay no taxes on their income is true. We're done.

However, I am arguing that claim is bogus, and that not considering payroll tax as a tax on income is simply false. If we acknowledge that payroll tax is a tax on income, then the 50% number is only true if we count people with essentially no income: children, elderly, indigent.

http://www.politicususa.com/en/half-americans-taxes

The source seeking to clarify the 50% misstatement in the link above is the Tax Policy Center.

Hopefully that clarifies what I'm saying.

bjphysics
36
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bjphysics 11/29/11 - 05:44 pm
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I was just asking; don’t get

I was just asking; don’t get your panties all in a wad that’s what happened to me in my current picture.

harley_52
23424
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harley_52 11/29/11 - 05:45 pm
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scoobydo, good point about

scoobydo, good point about FICA and Medicare payments.

I think a point worth making is that we don't have any way of knowing what is the true percentage of workers not paying taxes. Many of them (perhaps most of them) aren't paid "on the books" anyway. They are paid in cash "under the table" and don't pay a dime in taxes/payments via payroll deductions.

I don't know what the actual percentage of people like that is, but I'm pretty sure it's significant.

harley_52
23424
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harley_52 11/29/11 - 05:50 pm
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burninater said "Hopefully

burninater said "Hopefully that clarifies what I'm saying."

You're kidding, right? It makes it worse. It's more of an attempt to confuse the issue and present a false premise that I thought you were trying.

burninater
9605
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burninater 11/29/11 - 05:51 pm
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To answer your question about

To answer your question about specific numbers Harley, and source Scooby, the Tax Policy Center puts the number of income earners paying tax on their income at 86%.

Carleton Duvall
6305
Points
Carleton Duvall 11/29/11 - 06:02 pm
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From your site,

From your site, burninator

Let me explain—repeat actually—what this means: About half of taxpayers paid no federal income tax last year. It does not mean they paid no tax at all. Many shelled out Social Security and Medicare payroll taxes. In fact, only 14 percent of Americans didn’t pay either income or payroll taxes. Some paid property taxes and, it is fair to say, just about all of them paid sales taxes of one kind or another. So to say they pay no taxes is flat wrong.

My response: Same as before, 50% pay no income taxes. That is absolutely correct, As Harley as said, adding payroll tax sales etc.only distorts the truth.
Not one of us is uniformed enough to not realize that everyone pays these other taxes.

bjphysics
36
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bjphysics 11/29/11 - 06:03 pm
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0
I think this source makes the

I think this source makes the who has "money subtracted from income by the federal government" picture clearer but only for 2001 which may not be representative of average years. It excludes state taxes so the total picture is still not complete.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/federal-taxes-households.cfm

harley_52
23424
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harley_52 11/29/11 - 06:04 pm
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burninater, I hate to tell

burninater, I hate to tell you this, but that's just not true. Did you look at the Tax Policy Center's data? It doesn't show what Politicususa purports it to say. They are making it up and you are spreading it around.

Total *&^%$#@.

Carleton Duvall
6305
Points
Carleton Duvall 11/29/11 - 06:05 pm
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0
BJ said:I was just asking;

BJ said:I was just asking; don’t get your panties all in a wad that’s what happened to me in my current picture.

My response; OOPs, I wanted to ask about that but felt I better leave that alone.

bjphysics
36
Points
bjphysics 11/29/11 - 06:19 pm
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0
Oh, I found the Holy Grail.

Oh, I found the Holy Grail. Data for 2004 (a non-economically distressed year) in Table 18 shows all taxes: payroll, Fed income, gas, cigarettes, etc., state for same, etc. by income level. The wee folk paid 36.18%, the fat cats paid 65.87%, and the people in the middle paid 28.25%.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/wp1.pdf

Check out the alcohol and tobacco taxes.

bjphysics
36
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bjphysics 11/29/11 - 06:20 pm
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0
This wedgy is killing me...

This wedgy is killing me...

burninater
9605
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burninater 11/29/11 - 06:52 pm
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Scooby, we're saying the same

Scooby, we're saying the same thing, and I explicitly stated it above. I'll say it again. If you don't count payroll taxes as a tax on income, then the 50% number was correct. And again, I repeat that the notion that payroll tax is not a tax on income is, to use Harley's term, Total *&^%$#@.

As to your statement "Not one of us is uniformed enough to not realize that everyone pays these other taxes" I think you're mistaken, and that has been the whole reason why I brought this up in the first place.

In fact, the quote you linked was a direct statement from the TPC in an attempt to refute what it sees as a deliberate distortion of its data. Here's the rest of their position statement that you left out:

"However, this class warfare-like rhetoric plays to a perception that the income tax is a chump tax: Only hard-working folks like us pay it. The welfare queens don’t. The super-rich don’t. It is a powerful emotional argument. It is also flat wrong."

I don't think they could be much clearer on their position that they view the statement of 50% paying no income taxes as an outright lie.

Carleton Duvall
6305
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Carleton Duvall 11/29/11 - 07:14 pm
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0
FYI, burninator, I have

FYI, burninator, I have never, ever made that statement. I fully understand that everybody pays some sort of tax either directly or indirectly. What's the old saying about death and taxes? I am afraid that some in the attempt to be brief have used the word tax where they meant federal income tax. In all due respect, burninator, I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Have a good evening.

burninater
9605
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burninater 11/29/11 - 07:27 pm
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Scooby, I never said you said

Scooby, I never said you said it, this whole thing started when I responded to carcraft saying it. You took up his gauntlet and here we are. Hope your night is a good one.

Carleton Duvall
6305
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Carleton Duvall 11/29/11 - 07:49 pm
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0
OK, Burinator. Lets call this

OK, Burinator. Lets call this one a tie. No harm done.

KSL
129906
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KSL 11/29/11 - 07:56 pm
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Harley said: scoobydo, It

Harley said: scoobydo, It seems to me the term "payroll taxes" used to include all taxes deducted and paid from the payroll. Income taxes, FICA, FUTA, SUTA, Medicare and any other taxes deducted from your paycheck were all included under the term "payroll taxes."

I could be wrong about this, but I think differentiating income taxes from "payroll taxes" is a liberal way of obfuscating the facts when people aren't aware of their newly minted definitions.

I say, kind of like not counting energy and food prices in the inflation calculations???

Vito45
-2
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Vito45 11/29/11 - 08:32 pm
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0
"There is another point that

"There is another point that I would like to make concerning payroll taxes. Although called taxes, social security and medicare' Taxes" are not really taxes. Those taxes should referred to as retirement contribution or health care insurance because, in reality, that is what they are."

BINGO!! That is the charade the libs put forth to claim the working 'po pay taxes.

Vito45
-2
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Vito45 11/29/11 - 08:40 pm
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Burn, you may also note that

Burn, you may also note that when I refer to the 47% not paying, I do specify FIT. I'm ok with that, because as scooby notes, fica and medicare are advance contributions to entitlements that will get paid back in spades for most workers.

burninater
9605
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burninater 11/29/11 - 09:57 pm
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So wait, if SSI and Medicare

So wait, if SSI and Medicare are not tax-funded programs but pre-paid funds, why have they been trumpeted as breaking the back of the American taxpayer? You cant have it both ways.

As we all know, these program funds have been treated as slush funds. Not calling their revenue source taxes, when that revenue source has been spent in other items, makes zero sense.

And KSL, the split between "federal income" vs "payroll taxes", again, has been made not by liberals, but as a way to try to substantiate the false claim that half of America pays no tax on their income.

I understand, Vito and Scooby, that you are being specific about FIT, but we all know when we hear it as a constant talking point, that specific nuance is not being made. And when you see a comment like carcraft's, which is now that half of American households pay NO taxes, it is clear that the distinction is a necessary one that is being deliberately left out to create a political myth.

scgator
1042
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scgator 11/29/11 - 10:05 pm
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The biggest tragedy in all of

The biggest tragedy in all of this is that it does not matter who is in power, democrats or republicans, the American people will be screwed in the end. BOTH sides make good arguments, and have good ideas; but, WE cannot tell who is telling the truth; for "their" battle is not for the good of the American people, but it is for the power of the white house.

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