Founding Fathers embraced way of God

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Why are the terms "Founding Fathers" and "a more perfect union" used in a letter to promote the homosexual community ("Gay pride events hold special meaning," July 10)? Which letters were written by our Founding Fathers stating that sodomy is good for the people of our nation?

In March 1778, George Washington had Lt. Frederick Gotthold Enslin put out of the military. His crimes were attempted sodomy of a soldier and perjury. Washington considered sodomy an infamous crime that was abhorred and detested. As for "a more perfect union," that will start to come about if the people of this nation would once again gain moral clarity.

Our Founding Fathers found moral clarity in the Holy Bible. The fourth president of the United States, James Madison, said: "Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."

As a signer of the Declaration of Independence and a ratifier of the U.S. Constitution, Benjamin Rush stated: "The Gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are able to obey them in all situations."

People are happy to hear John 3:16, but what about John 3:36, in which Jesus said: "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life for God's wrath remains on him."

I do not cast stones at the homosexual community, for that lesson was taught with the woman in the Bible caught in adultery. Jesus forgave her, but also told her to go and sin no more. He will continue to do this for all who would turn to Him.

So we have two roads to take. One is the way of the world, and the other is the way as taught by God. Your choice!

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Fundamental_Arminian
1871
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Fundamental_Arminian 07/25/11 - 03:11 am
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"I do not cast stones at the

"I do not cast stones at the homosexual community, for that lesson was taught with the woman in the Bible caught in adultery. Jesus forgave her, but also told her to go and sin no more. He will continue to do this for all who would turn to Him" (Michael R. Watts).

Amen. Homosexuality is among the sins that can be forgiven and repented of. That's what the apostle Paul told the Corinthian believers:

"(9) Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, (10) nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (11) And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 English Standard Version).

Jon Lester
2480
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Jon Lester 07/25/11 - 03:17 am
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If you're asking me to
Unpublished

If you're asking me to identify with the theology of the Founders, then you won't mind if I align most closely with Thomas Paine, who might be chagrined to know his envisioned "Age of Reason" may yet be centuries away, if he could be here to observe us now.

carcraft
28497
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carcraft 07/25/11 - 04:32 am
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Excellent letter. One of

Excellent letter. One of George Washington's first acts as commander in Chief was to found a Chaplains corp for the army to provide moral guidance. I would love to see Washington try that today. Congress has a Chaplain (could we get anywhere near that today?) and God knows many should consult him before sexting etc...LOL

InChristLove
22485
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InChristLove 07/25/11 - 05:08 am
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Jon Lester, you may align

Jon Lester, you may align yourself closely with Thomas Paine but it is truly said that when he died in 1809 only SIX people attended his funeral because he had been ostracized for his criticism and ridicule of Christianity.
Doesn't say much for his character or legacy to me.

burninater
9943
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burninater 07/25/11 - 06:05 am
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How many people were at

How many people were at Jesus' internment, ICL?

InChristLove
22485
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InChristLove 07/25/11 - 06:10 am
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I don't rightly know

I don't rightly know burninater, I wasn't there to count....but I do know that Jesus arose from that grave but poor Mr. Paine sure hasn't. Goes back to the character of the man and what kind of influence that person has made on society. I'd say that Jesus ranks pretty high.

burninater
9943
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burninater 07/25/11 - 06:16 am
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Weren't there to count, but

Weren't there to count, but do know he rose from the dead, eh? Well, can't argue with that logic, I suppose.

InChristLove
22485
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InChristLove 07/25/11 - 06:22 am
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No, don't suppose you would

No, don't suppose you would be able to understand. Wasn't there when they laid Him in the tomb but sure know His Spirit lives inside my heart.

Jane18
12332
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Jane18 07/25/11 - 06:23 am
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HE defeated death burn. HE

HE defeated death burn. HE was GOD in flesh, so---HE can do anything and everything. One day you will know....................then everything will be 'logical' to you.

burninater
9943
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burninater 07/25/11 - 06:34 am
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Doubt that Jane, but the

Doubt that Jane, but the point I let myself stray from is simply that it's pretty ironic when a follower of Jesus states that persecution is a sign of lack of character.

You may want to rethink that position, ICL.

Beck Tears
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Beck Tears 07/25/11 - 06:45 am
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This letter is so silly- and

This letter is so silly- and the way to prove it's silly is to replace Jesus with Mohammad, and then make a case how Islam provides a moral clarity to this nation. Keep your religion to yourself.

Another silly part is to say "Well- this was the way things were back in 1776, so we should continue to do the same today, in 2011." Had there been no slavery, oppression of women, and eradication of the natives of America, among a whole host of wrong and embarrassing events and behavior of our founders, maybe we could have a discussion of retaining the moral clarity of 1776.

To say "Our Founding Fathers found moral clarity in the Holy Bible" is also silly and false, because not all of them did. Jefferson even wrote his own bible, removing all the goofy magic, supernatural aspects, and editing a lot of portions of the bible because he believed it to be wrong.

Paine has already been mentioned as well- however he has been dismissed by ICL because only six people showed up to his funeral- because the discounts all the work he did for the country. Paine was ahead in time- against religion, slavery, learning from Iroquois how a democratic society can function in harmony. However if ICL wants to use Paine's funeral as a testament to how bad he is- I wonder if it would be fair to ask if the way Jesus died is a testament to his character. Surely people wouldn't have killed an innocent person, and torture him.

InChristLove
22485
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InChristLove 07/25/11 - 08:55 am
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Ah, but the difference

Ah, but the difference burninator is that Jesus may have been persecuted at the time of his death, but has been Redeemed and his character proven to be flawless, whereas, Mr. Paine's poor character still remains.

burninater
9943
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burninater 07/25/11 - 09:05 am
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And I declare that Mr. Paine

And I declare that Mr. Paine has been Redeemed and his character proven to be flawless. His Spirit lives inside my heart. I know it, and so it is true. Peace.

Beck Tears
0
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Beck Tears 07/25/11 - 09:14 am
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You're not alone, burninater.

You're not alone, burninater. I too have read Mr. Paine's works, writings he himself have done, and found his words to be full of wisdom and reason, it brings harmony to my soul. His spirit also resides in my heart, blessed Mr. Paine. Ah-men.

follower
92
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follower 07/25/11 - 09:20 am
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Burn, we've bantered back and

Burn, we've bantered back and forth before and I've always found you intelligent and respectful. You use what I call the "Road Runner" technique regularly where you turn a question back on the commentor.
[the road runner always used the coyote's missles and bombs meant for him against coyote]

Would you describe yourself as an atheist or agnostic? [No sarcasm intended]

gaspringwater
3
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gaspringwater 07/25/11 - 09:48 am
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It's dishonest to claim the

It's dishonest to claim the founding fathers were Christians who accepted the Bible. The founding fathers were Deists who believed in a God but not the God of Abraham and they didn't accept the Christian Bible. They were freethinkers who relied on their reason, not their faith. They were radicals, the Saul D. Alinskys of their day. Read a few quotes:

Thomas Jefferson:
"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

Thomas Paine:
"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)."

"Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers, and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible)."

InChristLove
22485
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InChristLove 07/25/11 - 09:50 am
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Beak Tears, Thomas Jefferson,

Beak Tears, Thomas Jefferson, although he edited some of Christ teachings (leaving out the miracles) he still believe in the moral teachings of Christ in the Holy Bible. That sir, is not silly or false. Look it up.

InChristLove
22485
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InChristLove 07/25/11 - 10:27 am
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Burninater and Beck Tears,

Burninater and Beck Tears, when your days on earth are over, I hope you're not too disappointed when you spend eternity with Mr. Paine.

Beck Tears
0
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Beck Tears 07/25/11 - 10:34 am
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When I'm dead- I'm dead. That

When I'm dead- I'm dead. That is all, nothing more. It would be awesome though to talk to people of reason like Mr. Paine. As for Jefferson well, let me quote others "Jefferson considered much of the New Testament of the Bible to be false. He described these as "so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture". He described the "roguery of others of His disciples", and called them a "band of dupes and impostors" describing Paul as the "first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus", and wrote of "palpable interpolations and falsifications". He also described the Book of Revelation to be "merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams"."

One more time for added effect. Jefferson considered much of the New Testament of the Bible to be false.

However- point remains that the founding fathers had different views, thoughts, and beliefs. They most certainly did not want any religion to make laws in this land, so keep your myths to yourself. We are not a theocracy. I expect letters like this to come from Iran, not from people in the United States of America.

dougk
3
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dougk 07/25/11 - 11:11 am
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I'd be happy to spend
Unpublished

I'd be happy to spend eternity with Mr. Paine and Mr. Tears.

"The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the absence from Jerusalem of a lunatic asylum."
Thomas Paine

burninater
9943
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burninater 07/25/11 - 11:25 am
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Follower -- agnostic. ICL --

Follower -- agnostic.

ICL -- sounds interesting. Guess we'll have to wait and see!

InChristLove
22485
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InChristLove 07/25/11 - 11:25 am
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Beck Tears, so sad that there

Beck Tears, so sad that there is no more meaning to your life than to be born, live a few years on earth, and then die. Nothing more.

dougk, all I can say is I sincerely hope and pray you and BeckTears change your viewpoint before you leave this earthly world.....I am being sincere by that statement.

burninater
9943
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burninater 07/25/11 - 11:30 am
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ICL, it is sadder that people

ICL, it is sadder that people have such a small opinion of our precious time here in life.

And just because someone doesn't believe Christian folklore doesn't mean they don't consider an afterlife. Christianity is by no means the only game in town, despite beliefs to the contrary.

follower
92
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follower 07/25/11 - 11:32 am
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Beck said, "When I'm dead-

Beck said, "When I'm dead- I'm dead. That is all, nothing more."

What if you're wrong? You've put all your eggs in one basket with no chance of recovery. If I'm wrong, no harm no foul, and as you suggest, I'll be worm food. Your life is yours to do as you please only to pay in eternity. My life now is fulfilling and eternity will be blissful.

Your way is either win/nothing or win/lose. My way is win/nothing or win/win.

Weighing the two options, I'll take mine. Eternity is a long time.

InChristLove
22485
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InChristLove 07/25/11 - 11:32 am
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" They most certainly did not

" They most certainly did not want any religion to make laws in this land, so keep your myths to yourself"

Are you saying that as an American citizen I do not have the same freedom to speak about what I believe as you as an American citizen have that same freedom of speach? What if I told you to keep your blasphameous opinion to yourself? How well would that go over? Not so well I'm afraid.

Yes burninater, I guess well have to wait as see....but let me ask, who stands to loose in the end if one of us is wrong? You or I?

Beck Tears
0
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Beck Tears 07/25/11 - 11:48 am
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ICL said "so sad that there

ICL said "so sad that there is no more meaning to your life than to be born, live a few years on earth, and then die. Nothing more." I have a different view point on that, however a guy named Dawkin's said it with much more eloquence.

"The world and the universe is an extremely beautiful place, and the more we understand about it the more beautiful does it appear. It is an immensely exciting experience to be born in the world, born in the universe, and look around you and realize that before you die you have the opportunity of understanding an immense amount about that world and about that universe and about life and about why we're here. We have the opportunity of understanding far, far more than any of our predecessors ever. That is such an exciting possibility, it would be such a shame to blow it and end your life not having understood what there is to understand."

I'd rather live my time on this planet surrounded by truth, enjoying life- then trying to fathom a life of eternity, in a place where you and no one else knows what goes on in this imaginary place.

If you want to feel as if you are part of something bigger- focus on science. It's beautiful and amazing. This quote is from Neil degrasse Tyson-

"Recognize that the very molecules that make up your body, the atoms that construct the molecules, are traceable to the crucibles that were once the centers of high mass stars that exploded their chemically rich guts into the galaxy, enriching pristine gas clouds with the chemistry of life. So that we are all connected to each other biologically, to the earth chemically and to the rest of the universe atomically. That’s kinda cool! That makes me smile and I actually feel quite large at the end of that. It’s not that we are better than the universe, we are part of the universe. We are in the universe and the universe is in us."

Beck Tears
0
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Beck Tears 07/25/11 - 11:53 am
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And this argument of "What if

And this argument of "What if you're wrong?" Well.... what if we are all wrong about Zeus? Or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or viking gods? We can be wrong about all the other gods and religions. You just picked the Christian way, because of where you born. If you were born in Iran, you'd be following a different path. It's nothing special about the path you picked- you were born in a certain time and place. There's a reason why you do not consider the god Thor- so what if you're wrong?

burninater
9943
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burninater 07/25/11 - 11:53 am
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ICL, we both may, but by my

ICL, we both may, but by my calculations you have more to lose. You are living with the assumption that this is not all there is, and that there is a Christian afterlife. One's entire life philosophy is changed by that. I've known people to achieve serenity in Christianity, and Ive known people embittered by what they view as necessary suffering. What if you're wrong and the Buddhists are right? Your stubborn adherence to an illusion will have consigned you to another time around on the wheel of suffering.

I feel as though I am living my life to the fullest, valuing this existence with the love that comes from understanding its impermanence. If there is a bonus round, then I only win all the more. The ONLY way I lose as a result is if the Christian myth is EXACTLY right, down to the Catholic addition of Dante's Hell, such an obvious control-through-fear mechanism that it's laughable IMO. Given the history of human belief systems, I'm not particularly worried that THIS one was right when the hundreds that came before, and that currently coexist with Christianity, were not.

Follower -- that last paragraph is my response to your suggestion that non-Christians were putting all their eggs in one basket, whereas I feel exactly the opposite is true.

dougk
3
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dougk 07/25/11 - 12:04 pm
0
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Not to worry about my soul,
Unpublished

Not to worry about my soul, ICL. You'll have to stick to young, impressionable children in Sunday School. Your scare tactics won't work on me.

lcosentino
0
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lcosentino 07/25/11 - 12:06 pm
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gaspringwriter: What bible

gaspringwriter: What bible did Thomas Paine claim to read when he stated that Moses ordered to "debauch and rape the daughters"? This is not found anywhere in the Bible, and may be instead a misquote of Deuteronomy 20:17, in which Moses instructed complete destruction of tribes including the Amorites who "..engaged in detestable practices in worshipping their gods." (Dt. 20:18) One of these practices included child sacrifice. If you look back at Dt. 19:10, Moses instructs his people to first offer peace and the adversaries are given the choice to reject or accept the peace offer. In light of God's standard of holiness, there were consequences for the continued horrible practices of the Amorites and other tribes mentioned. An example would be of our intolerance of the practices of Hitler. But the Bible shows that people who practice evil were given many opportunities to turn from their wickedness.
With respect to women, it does not anywhere instruct the rape of women, on the contrary; Dt 21:10-14 gives instructions for proper treatment of a woman in captivity whom an Israelite wants to marry. There are also many other references to honoring women throughout the Bible; Jesus first appeared to the women and told them to "go and tell" the other disciples. In the book of Acts you see many examples where Paul had high regard to his women followers, and Galatians 3:28 states "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." It is the teachings of the Bible that advocate fair treatment of all peoples more than that any other religion. Sadly, there have been crimes against humanity in the name of Christ, but it was never of Christ's intention. It was actually an effective tactic of evil to turn people away from true Christianity. The Lord searches the heart, and he knows the ones who truly represent Him. When you read the Bible instead of taking the word of those who misquote it, you actually find overwhelmingly that God is a God of love, peace, mercy and forgiveness, and He gives many opportunities for people to turn to Him and away from their destructive ways. The old testament wars were fought against tribes and institutions which went against God's way of love and compassion, purity and holiness. The Spirit of Christ gives life, love, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self-control. With respect to Thomas Paine, what benefits does the "spirit of Thomas Paine" have to offer?

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