Student should stand for her beliefs

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Jennifer Keeton -- the young lady who is suing Augusta State University, charging that counseling professors asked her to set aside her faith -- is a breath of fresh air. It is time more people stood straight and stalwart for their beliefs.

This is not about her beliefs as much as it is about her right to express what she believes in. This is an educated young lady who is being chastised because she chose to say what she believes to be the truth.

The freedom to think and express what you believe in is what made this country great. This is what makes college exciting -- new ideas and the ability to share and try new things.

This has nothing to do with whether homosexuality is right or wrong. It has everything to do with not daring to disagree with a professor. What a piece of work. It's time to find higher education in Athens or Columbia.

Pat Jones

North Augusta, S.C.

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baronvonreich
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baronvonreich 08/04/10 - 11:05 pm
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What a trivial LTE written by

What a trivial LTE written by a very simplistic person who obviously hasn't bothered to concern herself with the standards and accredidations of ASU's counseling progran nor bothered to read Ms. Keeton's lawsuit.

I believe pi = 2.14, gravity's acceleration =8.81 m/ss, blacks have no right to own real estate, and that cancer patients only need prayer and no chemotherapy or surgeries.
If I don't get my engineering, law, and medical degrees then I'm gonna sue. It is the same highly flawed logic simpletons.

soldout
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soldout 08/04/10 - 11:15 pm
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Only took one comment to

Only took one comment to start the name calling...could be a record.

dougk
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dougk 08/04/10 - 11:37 pm
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That's the point....she is
Unpublished

That's the point....she is expressing what she believes to be the "truth"....well, according to the program she is in, it's not the "truth."
Ms. Keeting is not qualified to submit new ideas just off the top of her head without some sort of research or substantiation...this isn't a "feel good" about yourself program. Futhermore, what is "new" about the idea that homosexuality is an abomination?? What new ideas are we going to try....conversion therapy...I think that's been done. Yes, why not, a student's opinion in a professional program should carry the same weight as the learned professionals who have passed the muster to be the instructors in the professional program...OK...let all hell break loose, that's cool. Pat, you ain't gonna find nothing different in Columbia or Athens, get a grip on reality before you send off your next letter.

johnston.cliff
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johnston.cliff 08/05/10 - 12:01 am
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ASU will have their chance to

ASU will have their chance to answer Ms Keeton in court without all of the twists supporters of the secular left like to attribute to the case. Only then will we see if the laws apply to both parties.

dougk
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dougk 08/05/10 - 12:06 am
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OMG...the SAT does not apply
Unpublished

OMG...the SAT does not apply to grad school....and even it did...why would you draw such a conclusion??? This is enough TOTAL nonsense....I swear, I question my strong unequivocal support of first amendment rights....maybe there should be an IQ test.

Inquiring Lynn
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Inquiring Lynn 08/05/10 - 05:32 am
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Fellow people of the

Fellow people of the Enlightment, yes, she like special creationists can master enoght to pass tests but yet deliver false fruits as others here note!
W ought ever to base our convictions on knowledge as William Kingdon Clifford advises rather than upon William James's the right to believe.
The young lady is indulging in prejudice based on irrational argumentation for an anthology of fables that others interptet differently!
So, she is no heroine but just another nescient, braving the winds of rationalism to hold devoutly t o her nescience!
Remember the Church of Nescientology and Christian Nescience!
Nescience = ignorance.
My disorder does make for creative language,eh?

lsmith
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lsmith 08/05/10 - 05:47 am
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Inquiring Lynn: They teach
Unpublished

Inquiring Lynn: They teach English and writing skills at ASU in case you might be interested. Might help you get your point across. You lost me in your first sentence.
I'm agnostic and it doesn't bother me one iota that Keeton might be influenced by her beliefs in doing her job. I'd rather have hers in professional play than say college professor "WARD CHURCHILL" who continually subjected his students to radical left wing, anti-christian, anti-American ideology in the accedemic system.

jiclemens
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jiclemens 08/05/10 - 06:25 am
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dougk:"I swear, I question my

dougk:"I swear, I question my strong unequivocal support of first amendment rights....maybe there should be an IQ test."

I think a few "founding fathers" would agree.

Runner46
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Runner46 08/05/10 - 06:25 am
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In our country, there are

In our country, there are limits on a person's rights in the workplace as well as limits on employer rights to control the workplace. When you are in someone's employ, you are a representative of that employer. If you don't like what that employer wants you to do, then you have the right to find another employer. Standing up for your beliefs is great, but in the workplace you either agree with your employer or leave to work for someone more congenial with you. That's not so difficult to figure out. This lawsuit is going nowhere.

Runner46
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Runner46 08/05/10 - 06:30 am
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On the other hand, here is a

On the other hand, here is a view of what colleges are doing these days to influence our society's future. What ever happened to exploring new ideas and freedom expression?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-zz1HwxIjg

sociologyedu_one
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sociologyedu_one 08/05/10 - 06:35 am
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take your faith to church,

take your faith to church, not school, she is obviously trying to stir up contro. to further her ill-minded agenda.

soldout
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soldout 08/05/10 - 07:36 am
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May Ms. Keeton be blessed in

May Ms. Keeton be blessed in all her efforts. She has already helped many by taking this action. They know now if she was willing to stand up to a liar then they can too. By the way, if Evolution were correct then the gays would have dropped out of the gene pool long ago.

jiclemens
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jiclemens 08/05/10 - 08:57 am
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Yeah soldout, just keep her

Yeah soldout, just keep her away from my kids.

Pay What U Owe
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Pay What U Owe 08/05/10 - 09:19 am
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and everyone else's.

and everyone else's.

swinter05
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swinter05 08/05/10 - 10:06 am
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Take a stand and fight with

Take a stand and fight with love and be passionate for Jesus. I am so glad Jennifer has chosen to set an example rather than be quiet and let things be.

InChristLove
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InChristLove 08/05/10 - 10:23 am
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sociologyedu one...."take

sociologyedu one...."take your faith to church, not school"

Faith isn't something you put in your pocket when you go to church and leave on the kitchen table when you go to school. Faith is a way of life and as much a part of oneself as breathing.

southernguy08
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southernguy08 08/05/10 - 10:43 am
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Faith in a college is as
Unpublished

Faith in a college is as unwelcome as something else...common sense.

grouse
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grouse 08/05/10 - 10:44 am
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Once again, she is there to
Unpublished

Once again, she is there to learn, not teach.

Pastor Dan White
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Pastor Dan White 08/05/10 - 10:49 am
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dougk - Pat Jones is correct

dougk - Pat Jones is correct in part. "This is not about her beliefs as much as it is about her right to express what she believes in. This is an educated young lady who is being chastised because she chose to say what she believes to be the truth."

Jones didn't go far enough. The issue and nothing but the issue is about 1st Amendment rights of freedom of religion to hold beliefs according to her religion which ASU has denied her of that right by threatening to kick her of a program sponsored by a STATE University unless she complies with their demands which stand against her religious beliefs which were not part of the demands of the program for her when she enrolled.

And baron - It seems to me that the 1st Amendment right of freedom of religion should trump any "standards and accredidations of ASU's counseling progran."

Pastor Dan White
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Pastor Dan White 08/05/10 - 10:52 am
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Runner46 - this is not a

Runner46 - this is not a workplace issue. If Jennifer finds employment in a public school (work place) and tries to implement her religious beliefs on her counselees, then that becomes a different issue since the Supreme Court has repeatedly stressed that the Constitution prohibits public schools from indoctrinating children in religion and it seems this would prohibit a school counselor from indoctrinating a student counselee in religion and religious convictions.

Pastor Dan White
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Pastor Dan White 08/05/10 - 10:57 am
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sociologyedu_one - So, all

sociologyedu_one - So, all public, state universities should have prohibitions on any student who would hold beliefs based on their religion. I guess you won't a sign at the entrance of a state university that says, "Expression of religious beliefs prohibited."

Wheww, a course in civics and the Bill of Rights is in order for you.

Jennifer's intent is not stirring up conflict but demanding her civil rights under the 1st Amendment.

sociologyedu_one
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sociologyedu_one 08/05/10 - 11:00 am
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to be in college, she's an

to be in college, she's an idiot, unless you use the christian scale of education

Pastor Dan White
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Pastor Dan White 08/05/10 - 11:01 am
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grouse - Learning in an

grouse - Learning in an institution of state or private higher education is all about the free exchange of ideas - religious and secular in class discussions with fellow students and professors and the debate of those ideas between classmates and professors.

College learning is not sitting in a classroom, zombie like, and swallowing everything that a professor says or teaches. Most professors allow or should allow for questions and debate during the lecture and after the lecture. At least that is the way I experience college and grad school.

Pastor Dan White
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Pastor Dan White 08/05/10 - 11:55 am
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sociologyedu_one - You are so

sociologyedu_one - You are so wrong. For many Christians, the Christian scale of education does not mean beliefs that Jennifer holds. Many Christians would disagree with Jennifer's theological religious beliefs, but it seems to me that Americans should defend her 1st Amendment right to hold her religious convictions and not face the threat of being kicked out of the program unless she complies with the mandates ASU has placed on her to change her beliefs.

If students are forced to leave their religious convictions at church or home and not bring them to college, then it seems to me that the 1st Amendment has been neutered.

Even in the public schools (grades 1-12), a student has the right to wear a T-shirt expressing their religious beliefs and in some US public schools where there is a high concentration of Muslim students, the schools have been forced by the court to allow for their ritual prayer time during the school day even providing space for them to pray.

Moreover, Bible-believing students in public schools have a right to hold a Bible-club during club activity time as long as it is student led.

A male Hindu Sikh has the right to wear a turban to a public school. A Muslim female student has the right to wear a scarf over her hair in a public school.

That is what the 1st Amendment is all about.

However, in France, A law banning Islamic head scarves in France's public schools was adopted. The law forbids religious apparel and signs that "conspicuously show" a student's religious affiliation. Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses would also be banned, but the law is aimed at removing Islamic head scarves from classrooms.

Is that what you want for America - to deny students in public schools the 1st Amendment right to express their religious beliefs and affiliations?

baronvonreich
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baronvonreich 08/05/10 - 12:01 pm
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Pastor Dan - you can't be

Pastor Dan - you can't be serious? Religion trumps standards and accredidations? Never has and never will.

When you go to the hospital you want certified, standardized medical care not religion or else you would go to church and not a hospital. Counseling and ALL other occupations operate the same way.

Pastor Dan White
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Pastor Dan White 08/05/10 - 12:21 pm
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baron - LOL I evidently

baron - LOL I evidently wasn't clear, "Religion trumps standards and accredidations." The context of that statement is that the 1st Amendment rights for religion and religious beliefs trumps standards and accredidations.

That is, if an accreditation agency requires a student with religion and religious beliefs the denial of admission and graduation from their accredited program, then it seems to me that the Constitutional 1st Amendment rights of freedom of religion would trump such a requirement by an accreditation agency if challenged in court.

For example, if the counseling accreditation agency had as its policy, "Any student with religion or religious belief that conflicts with our core values concerning the admission and graduation of a student from a counseling program certified by our agency, that student shall not be allowed admission or graduation from a program certified by our agency."

That's what seems to be happening here in the ASU case, and in my opinion is a violation of the 1st Amendment.

The Constitution is the Supreme Law of our land.

It will be interesting to see how the court rules in Jennifer's case when all of the facts are on the table and the lawyers engage in a hardy debate. But at this point, with the paucity of facts gleaned from the media, the whole truth and issues of this lawsuit has not been brought to light.

But from the facts that I have seen, it seems that her 1st Amendment rights have been violated by the University. I may end up with egg on my face after this whole case plays out when all of the facts are set forth which I will gladly let you wipe off my face LOL. Or if you prefer, you can throw a few eggs at me if I have defended her rights in error after all the facts are on the table!

Sorry for the confusion.

baronvonreich
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baronvonreich 08/05/10 - 12:28 pm
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Where exactly in ASU's or the

Where exactly in ASU's or the ACA's standards do you find religion or religious beliefs stated as reason for granting or denying anybody anything?

I will save you the time.....you don't. This is only about religion in Ms. Keeton's head, your head, and others like you who lack reasoning skills.

Pastor Dan White
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Pastor Dan White 08/05/10 - 12:36 pm
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And baron - yes, I want a

And baron - yes, I want a certified professional teaching kids, practicing medicine, practicing law, and practicing counseling. But this is about completing a program in a State University.

Professional certification comes after completion of the program and if her religious beliefs prevent her from being certified by an accreditation agency, I don't have a problem with that.

To me, there is a difference in the 1st Amendment right to express religious beliefs in a state university and not be threatened to be kicked out of the program for those beliefs and holding religious beliefs that would prevent a person to do their job in a professional way licensed by a professional certification agency.

For example, a person can choose to be a Muslim as his/her religious beliefs. However, the professional licensure Board of Ordained Ministry of the United Methodist Church would be within their Constitutional rights to deny a Muslim ordination to serve a United Methodist Church.

Another example, The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force would have the right to deny a place on their board if fundamentalist Christian who is opposed to homosexuality based on their religious beliefs applied for the position. There is no violation of Constitutional Law in these two examples. Many others could be given.

mable8
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mable8 08/05/10 - 12:51 pm
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Pastor Dan White: "Even in

Pastor Dan White: "Even in the public schools (grades 1-12), a student has the right to wear a T-shirt expressing their religious beliefs and in some US public schools where there is a high concentration of Muslim students, the schools have been forced by the court to allow for their ritual prayer time during the school day even providing space for them to pray. Moreover, Bible-believing students in public schools have a right to hold a Bible-club during club activity time as long as it is student led.
A male Hindu Sikh has the right to wear a turban to a public school. A Muslim female student has the right to wear a scarf over her hair in a public school." FYI--ANY student who professes their Christian belief in a public school, wears any apparrel indicating a professed Chrisitan precept, or attempts to hold a Bible Club will be chastised and suspended, with an option of being arrested for disturbing the peace. The other students you mention are indeed allowed to practice THEIR religion in our schools without any interference from school or police officials. Furthermore, CHRISTIAN children are forbidden to even say the name of GOD while in school, but a muslim student can call allah all he/she wants to without repercussions. CHRISTIAN children cannot bring their Bible to a public school, but a muslim/islamic student can bring their koran. In this instance, yes, the 1st Amendment as it pertains to CHRISTIAN children has been effectively neutered.

With respect to Jennifer at ASU: I will go so far as to say she has embellished the truth. No one ever told her she had to either renounce her religion or leave the school. What she has been told, and rightfully so, is that by using her religion in the form of counseling is unethical in the professional practice for social workers, school and other counselors, and psychologists. One's religion is not our business, but when a professional uses their religion in lieu of counseling, it is enough to have one's license suspended. Ms Jennifer needs to take her educational desires to a parochial school and when she does obtain her degree, she should work only in the religious sector--which differs significantly from the secular sector of society. Since Jennifer admitted that she would use her religious belief in a professional practice, the school has a right to deny continuance or admittance into a professionl degreed program where the student admits to a premeditated ethical violation. Would you want a person admitted to medical school if he or she stated somewhere along the line of the educational process that they planned to abort babies of only low income people and sterilize them because the prospective parent has little to no income once they received their license? It's the same with Jennifer--a gross violation of ethical standards that has been premeditated via her own admission.

Pastor Dan White
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Pastor Dan White 08/05/10 - 12:45 pm
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mable - check out the Bible

mable - check out the Bible club that meets at Lakeside Middle School (at least I think they still meet - I know they did have a Bible club there. I am sure they would be glad to have you as their guest if they still meet. At last report that I heard, they meet about 30 minutes before school once a week.

And check out the students who rally around the flag to pray on public school property. This year's rally is scheduled for September 22. It's called "See You at the Pole."

http://www.syatp.com/

Christian students are protected by the 1st Amendment.

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