The better to kill them?

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We have just seen a preview of how a news media that worked very hard to elect a president will be building fortifications around his presidency in 2012.

That the “mainstream” media skewed the 2008 election in Barack Obama’s favor is not in dispute, nor is it a matter of opinion or speculation. Even honest members of the major national media have admitted it, and studies have documented it, while Saturday Night Live paid satirical homage to it.

Even in the midst of this administration’s epic failure – again, the economic and polling data make it clear enough, and those who are paying attention know that’s just the tip of the iceberg – the media are going to defend this man to their last breath.

Dan Lothian of CNN didn’t just toss a softball over the plate to Mr. Obama at a press conference over the weekend, but he also moved the fences in. Asking about several Republican presidential candidates’ support for waterboarding of terror suspects, Lothian’s question went this way:

“I’m wondering if you think that they’re uninformed, out of touch, or irresponsible.”

Swing away, Mr. President! Aren’t White House correspondents supposed to be a little less cuddly and a little more challenging?

OK, we’ll do it for them.

First off, Mr. President, it’s more than curious that you would seek to claim the moral high ground in the matter of the war on terror. While you decry waterboarding of a few select terrorists – the worst of the worst, in an effort to get life-saving information, and in a way that actually does no lasting injury – your administration actually stepped up lethal bombing attacks by unmanned “Predator” drone aircraft. The BBC reported last year that drone attacks more than doubled under the Obama administration.

The president is right about one thing, though: There is no moral equivalency between putting a guy’s head in the toilet, which scares terror suspects, and lobbing missiles from aircraft – which kills them dead, along with anyone else who happens to be in the vicinity. It’s just that this president is on the wrong side of the equation.

So Mr. Obama is self-righteously against waterboarding. When’s he going to come out against killing people from the sky? How is doing that better than capturing and interrogating them without causing injury? You don’t get a trial, military or otherwise, after the Predator’s been to see you.

And how is it that the media are going to not only let him get away with this galactic hypocrisy, but actually prod him into it?

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allhans
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allhans 11/15/11 - 11:10 am
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TParty..Then I guess the

TParty..Then I guess the question would have to be, "Death or torture" since that is the topic here this morning.
From what I have seen of recents deaths, it was torture followed by death.

Riverman1
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Riverman1 11/15/11 - 11:33 am
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Drone baby drone.

Drone baby drone.

TParty
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TParty 11/15/11 - 11:34 am
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Those are different

Those are different situations. When you're fighting people, there are rules on how you can kill them. If the people you are fighting surrender, they are no longer combatants, and must treated as prisoners. For instance, if you are in a fire fight, you can obviously return fire and kill people (there are rules to that as well.). If the enemy decides they don't feel like dying and surrender, you cannot kill them. They have taken themselves off the battlefield. You can be in a battle for days against a group, and they can suddenly change their mind and decide to quit, so your actions have to adapt to the situation. How you treat people in during a combat situation is vastly different than your actions to them if they become prisoners.

drivenslow
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drivenslow 11/15/11 - 11:37 am
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wow im just blown away those
Unpublished

wow im just blown away those key al queada operatives killed by our drones well they were killed along with about 50,000 innocent civilians.....but i guess since we are americans its okay to kill thousands

Chillen
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Chillen 11/15/11 - 11:38 am
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The fix is in my friends.

The fix is in my friends. Look back at the American Communist Party goals from the 1960's. One of the main goals was to control the media.

That they are failing the American public is an understatement - from the newspapers, the news stations to the movie industry.....I hate what this nation has turned in to. I fear that these radicals have totally ruined our country - permanently.

drivenslow
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drivenslow 11/15/11 - 11:39 am
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its no wonder we are hated we
Unpublished

its no wonder we are hated we are no better than the maniac tyrants we kill........it says those that live by the sword die by the sword and the united states weilds the largest sword.......

harley_52
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harley_52 11/15/11 - 11:44 am
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Your two children have been

Your two children have been kidnapped and are being held by two terrorists $50,000,000,000 ransom. They have already killed your 8 year old daughter and her tortured, battered body has been found. The torture inflicted on her is too gruesome to imagine. It is a horror show, but real. They have now have promised to torture and kill her twin brother before midnight tonight unless they get the money.

You suspect they are in Augusta, but have no idea where. The police somehow manage to capture one of the suspects. He knows where your son is being held. He affirms the plan to torture and kill your son this evening. There is no way you can come up with the $50,000,000,000.

The police say they think waterboarding the kidnapper in custody is your only hope to save your son, but you must give the authorization.

What do you say?

Jane18
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Jane18 11/15/11 - 11:45 am
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.........and they are doing a

.........and they are doing a pretty good job of it Chillen! Just reading comments made on this editorial proves it. LORD have mercy on the ignorant................

blues550
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blues550 11/15/11 - 11:46 am
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I would certainly voulnteer
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I would certainly voulnteer for a personal waterboarding session with Michelle Bachman.

Jane18
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Jane18 11/15/11 - 11:47 am
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I should have said LORD have

I should have said LORD have mercy on us, because of the ignorant!

harley_52
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harley_52 11/15/11 - 12:11 pm
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tap, tap,

tap, tap, tap......

Testing....1, 2, 3

Is this mic on?

Where are all the high flying moralists who are okay with killing, but sanctimoniously aghast at waterboarding?

The clock is ticking......

Brad Owens
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Brad Owens 11/15/11 - 12:21 pm
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I always prefer a real

I always prefer a real terrorist dead rather than alive. Call me crazy.

Waterboarding is torture, but not the same type I waould be subjected to if I were captured by our enemies.

John McCain is 100% correct, but I must say that if I were given a choice of compromising that principle or having my wife, son and daughter killed in a terror attack, I would say waterboard them without mercy.

And Harley is 100% correct too, if I had a choice of my comrades getting killed or the "terrorist" getting waterboarded, I will say drown them. Nothing is worth Americans being lost if it's preventable. I am a patriot that way.

This is a complicated issue,

Brad

faithson
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faithson 11/15/11 - 12:27 pm
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'complicated' is an

'complicated' is an understatement. Some times we learn more than we need to know. 24/7 information sometimes produces complications because of the openness of our Government. I prefer the complications with 'openness' rather than the alternative.

TParty
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TParty 11/15/11 - 12:31 pm
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You waterboard him and he

You waterboard him and he lies. You get no where. Now in Iraq or Afghanistan you do the same thing the insurgents use it as an information opportunity. Further driving the population against you. Instead of actually treating the guy like a human being which they probably never have been treated their entire life and actually getting information.

david jennings
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david jennings 11/15/11 - 12:34 pm
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I'm with jane and chillen,

I'm with jane and chillen, this country is on the way down. My belief that God is our only hope has just been strengthened by reading these rediculous arguments.

harley_52
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harley_52 11/15/11 - 12:36 pm
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Brad Owens said "I always

Brad Owens said "I always prefer a real terrorist dead rather than alive. Call me crazy."

You're not crazy, you're a rational man who realizes when you're at war the enemy wants to kill you and everybody like you. It's not an academic exercise, it's blood and death.

Then he said "Waterboarding is torture, but not the same type I waould be subjected to if I were captured by our enemies."

Some have the opinion waterboarding is torture, others disagree. It is presently our National policy that it IS torture. Many think that policy is wrongheaded.

And he said "John McCain is 100% correct, but I must say that if I were given a choice of compromising that principle or having my wife, son and daughter killed in a terror attack, I would say waterboard them without mercy."

John McCain is entitled to his opinion too. Personally, I think he's just understandably sensitive to the issue because of the way he was treated which was, by the way, much more "torture" than waterboarding, in my opinion.

harley_52
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harley_52 11/15/11 - 12:39 pm
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TParty said "You waterboard

TParty said "You waterboard him and he lies. You get no where."

Maybe. Maybe not.

Maybe you get the location of your son.

So, you say you wouldn't authorize waterboarding the guy in custody and you'd let your son suffer the torture and slaughter tonight?

TParty
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TParty 11/15/11 - 12:49 pm
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Have you seen that movie

Have you seen that movie Taken, or Ransom? Those are movies where a parent will do anything to get their child back. It makes money, because it's what parents will do. There's no limit to what I would destroy to protect my boy. You see where I'm going here? If I had to choose between saving my son and it meant others would die, guess what I would pick.

Is that how you want our society to be however? You want emotion to take precedent of our laws?

harley_52
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harley_52 11/15/11 - 01:05 pm
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I'm going to take you off the

I'm going to take you off the hook and answer for you.....

ALL of you would authorize the cops waterboard the guy. If you claim otherwise you're not being honest, or you're not being rational.

Most of us (including me) would authorize them to do whatever was necessary to get the information. Heck, I'd even volunteer to do it myself.

My point is, of course, that it's very easy to say "we're better than that," or "that's not who we are" when it's not up close and personal and it's just an academic, esoteric issue.

Some of us believe the terrorists REALLY would kill us all if they could and are right now planning and scheming how to do it. Some of us have to make the call on what to do in order to save lives. For those who don't, it's easy to take what has been defined as the moral high road here and object to waterboarding. For others, the decision is much more real and much more critical.

We make a serious mistake when we announce to our enemies what we WON'T do when we capture them. When we make that serious mistake for the purpose of pursuing a political agenda it is a travesty and a tragedy.

harley_52
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harley_52 11/15/11 - 01:31 pm
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TParty said "Is that how you

TParty said "Is that how you want our society to be however? You want emotion to take precedent of our laws?"

Quite the contrary. Emotion (and political agenda) is what has caused us to develop such a bizarre stand on the issue of waterboarding in the first place.

If you'd do it to save your son in one instance why wouldn't you do it in another?

All of our prohibitions against "torture" were established via an agreement with other NATIONS as to how we would treat each others soldiers if they were captured on the battlefield.

Islamic terrorist groups have no nationality, they are not signatories to any agreement, and we have seen what they do to our soldiers when they are captured. They drag them through the streets, murder them in the most horiffic ways, saw their heads off in front of video cameras as they beg for their lives, and hang them from bridges to rot.

Liberals made a stand against waterboarding as a mechanism for attacking George W. Bush, not for the wisdom or the morality of the issue.

bjphysics
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bjphysics 11/15/11 - 02:32 pm
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Your two children have been

Your two children have been kidnapped and are being held by two terrorist’s $50,000,000,000 ransom. They have already killed your 8 year old daughter and her tortured, battered body has been found. The torture inflicted on her is too gruesome to imagine. It is a horror show, but real. They have now have promised to torture and kill her twin brother before midnight tonight unless they get the money.

You suspect they are in Augusta, but have no idea where. The police somehow manage to capture one of the suspects. He knows where your son is being held. He affirms the plan to torture and kill your son this evening. There is no way you can come up with the $50,000,000,000.

The police determine torturing the suspect to get information won’t work because of his training but they know the whereabouts of his innocent, uninvolved, ex-wife and 8 year old twin son and daughter. The suspect will also not talk if we waterboard his children because he believes they will be frightened and discomforted but none the less survive. The authorities offer an alternative they believe has a nearly 100% probability of success; they get a pedophile serving time in cell #12 and offer him a pardon from the governor if he will rape the son and daughter repeatedly as the suspect looks on. They only need your authorization to proceed.

What do you say?

allhans
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allhans 11/15/11 - 02:35 pm
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AMEN!

AMEN!

TParty
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TParty 11/15/11 - 02:42 pm
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I was typing a response, had

I was typing a response, had to walk away, and refreshed- and bjphysics hit the nail on the head with crazy scenarios of what would you do for your child. Just because you'd say you would do it on the internet, doesn't make torturing people in real life acceptable.

Does anyone wonder why we want government out of our lives unless it involves hurting and killing others?

allhans
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allhans 11/15/11 - 02:55 pm
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TParty..The military is

TParty..The military is separate as far as most of us are concerned. You know, national security. We support it.

TParty
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TParty 11/15/11 - 03:46 pm
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Military is separate from

Military is separate from what? Not from laws and regulations (Which the military says no torturing to include water boarding.).

JohnRandolphHardisonCain
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JohnRandolphHardisonCain 11/15/11 - 04:02 pm
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Waterboarding is torture. It

Waterboarding is torture. It is illegal, and it is counterproductive. Drone strikes are the equivalent of targeted assassination which is also illegal. It is also counterproductive. Drone strikes have turned nearly the entire population of Pakistan (more than 177 million people) against the United States. Hundreds of innocent civilians have been killed including the 16 year old son of Anwar al-Awlaki in Yemen. Both Bush and now Obama are war criminals along with numerous high ranking officials in both administrations. The misguided war on terror is in effect a desperate attempt by United States to establish its hegemony in every region on earth and to beat the Chinese to dwindling natural resources. This is a desperate last measure attempt to save the hollowed out U.S. economy. It will fail and United States will collapse economically a la the Soviet Union which also overextended itself with military spending while neglecting its own citizens. If United States militarized foreign policy does not bankrupt us it may well lead to WWIII. Peace and a paradigm shift are needed to retool the U.S. and the world with a post fossil fuel, green, sustainable economy. The present course, regardless of whether Obama is re-elected or a Republican establishment nominee is elected, will result in a catastrophe.

Brad Owens
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Brad Owens 11/15/11 - 04:57 pm
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My point is, I think that if

My point is, I think that if you involve yourself in things like international terrorism I really have no problem firing up your nu*s with a field phone to help save innocent lives, or the lives of my fellow soldier.

Ghadaffi is another case in point. I cry no croc tears for that guy when the drug him out in the street and shot him in the head with his own gold plated pistol. Good riddance. Yet folks were crying about his "rights." He gave that up when he fired 23mm anti-aircraft guns into unarmed protesters in Hero's Square.

Anyway, I know what is going to happen if I get captured, I accept it as a risk worth taking to make sure my family live in a free society. As I said before, I would do what it took to stop them from killing any Americans or allies, but then again, I was a soldier for a long time and have been around.

I guess it taints my view and muddies the waters a bit, but it is nice to know so many folks put politics pretending to be principles before survival.

In the military they tell us that we kill, we don't murder, and i believe that our country is worth protecting. Even if I have to get my hands "dirty" to do it.

I am conflicted on the right or wrongness of it, but I know what I would do and it would not be based on lofty ideals that serve no real purpose in modern warfare. I digress.

Brad

harley_52
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harley_52 11/15/11 - 05:44 pm
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Hey bjphysics, I'm curious

Hey bjphysics, I'm curious whether you ever discussed this issue with your father?

harley_52
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harley_52 11/15/11 - 05:44 pm
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Good post, Brad Owens.

Good post, Brad Owens.

bjphysics
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bjphysics 11/15/11 - 06:12 pm
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harley_52: “Hey bjphysics,

harley_52: “Hey bjphysics, I'm curious whether you ever discussed this issue with your father?”

Torture: We never discussed torture but he voiced general agreement with McCain and liked him.

Drone strikes: He loved talking about this with me because I worked on Predator, Global Hawk, and black SAR programs like ^%$#@*&^H#@$.

I can’t believe the battery in that cranial microchip implant still has power – must be nuclear, I’ll pay for that later.

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