Officials considering armed guards in schools

Shooting led to discussions on patrolling

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ATLANTA — A recent shooting at McNair Discovery Learning Academy has state and local officials discussing whether to hire armed officers to patrol elementary schools.

The school’s principal, Brian Bolden, told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution that he thinks elementary schools should be patrolled by armed police.

“I think one of the reasons is that bad guys are realizing that good guys aren’t in elementary schools – good guys who are armed,” Bolden said.

On Aug. 20, a 20-year-old man shot at police outside the school and was later talked into surrendering to authorities. No one was injured.

State School Superintendent John Barge said the state may need to consider helping districts pay for school police.

“It’ll be an extremely expensive funding issue,” he said. “But what value do you place on the life of children?”

School district officials will discuss hiring guards in the near future, Interim DeKalb County schools superintendent Michael Thurmond said. The district employed 57 school police officers in 2012 who patrolled elementary schools but were stationed at high schools, middle schools and the superintendent’s office.

Some Georgia lawmakers say teachers and administrators who are willing to carry guns should be trained to use them in shooter situations.

“I’m sticking with my guns, saying we do need it,” state Rep. Willie Talton R-Warner Robins, told the newspaper. “Either we do that or we have to put security in those schools because we’re living in an entirely different world, and the kids have to be protected.”

School security consultant Ken Trump says elementary schools should get the same level of protection as high schools.

“We have to make sure we don’t make elementary schools appear to be softer and easier targets,” he told the newspaper.

Director of the National School Safety Center Ronald Stephens said school districts should be careful not to overdo security upgrades because they could negatively impact a school’s atmosphere.

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Casting_Fool
1175
Points
Casting_Fool 08/26/13 - 02:01 am
5
1
Wow, look at that, will

Wow, look at that, will wonders never cease!

Somehow common sense, practicality and reality have prompted the right people to consider doing the right thing.

The only thing that will stop an armed bad guy is an armed good guy (or gal.)

Now to see if they carry through on these good intentions.

corgimom
34239
Points
corgimom 08/26/13 - 05:00 am
2
5
The armed guards are needed

The armed guards are needed to control the crazy parents. I've seen them, I know.

Those mentally ill people that go to the schools to do shootings- an armed guard won't stop them. They are so mentally ill, that rational reasoning won't deter them. They want "fame". They WANT to die.

Casting_Fool
1175
Points
Casting_Fool 08/26/13 - 06:24 am
5
1
Better to shoot and kill them

Better to shoot and kill them before they can harm anyone in the school. Just having signs like that private school that state that some teachers and staff are armed and will use deadly force would help (as long as the people are actually armed.)

Armed staff will stop a crazy person. Bullets make no difference between crazy and determined, they are "equal opportunity" deterrents.

Little Lamb
47048
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Little Lamb 08/26/13 - 07:52 am
3
0
Politics

From the story:

State School Superintendent John Barge said the state may need to consider helping districts pay for school police.

He will consider it only until the Republican Gubernatorial Primary is over next June. Then, you'll never hear it again.

nocnoc
45125
Points
nocnoc 08/26/13 - 08:12 am
4
1
One would think after Sandy Hooks

this was a no brainer.

But we are talking Politicians.

Question:
Many schools have Metal Detectors that the student have to use for school access. So are we to understand these are not maned by armed guards? What if a gun was found?

In the 89-90's people were aggressively challenging us on why we decided to home-school our 3 kids. Now a few of those have contacted my wife to ask how to do it for their Grand kids.

https://www.americanschoolofcorr.com/

While your results may very:
Our kids as adults are
1 EMT/Fire Rescue Fireman (Conservative)
1 Regional Director for F-500 (Independent)
1 District Manager for a F-500 (LIBERAL & oldest).

2 out of 3 ain't bad... I told the wife we needed to have done this sooner.

corgimom
34239
Points
corgimom 08/26/13 - 08:12 am
2
7
Police have standoffs and

Police have standoffs and shootings with crazy people all the time. Guns don't deter them.

They are far beyond that kind of reasoning and have been for years.

But just like a police officer, an armed school guard isn't going to be able to shoot into a crowd of people. And everywhere you go in a school, there are crowds of people. Shooting someone is not like you see in the movies and on TV.

Saying that armed guards will deter them- you are saying that based on being a healthy, rational, sane person. That's rational thinking.

They are insane, they don't think that way. Anybody that is so crazy that they will go slaughter innocent schoolchildren isn't going to be deterred by an armed officer.

GnipGnop
12467
Points
GnipGnop 08/26/13 - 08:37 am
9
1
Not true...

Most shootings happen where the shooter knows he will not be confronted. How many shootings happen in police stations? They pick schools, hospitals colleges and public places. In the case of theater shooting he chose a theater that had signs prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons. There was another theater closer to him that allowed CCW. Crazy people aren't stupid...

nocnoc
45125
Points
nocnoc 08/26/13 - 08:46 am
3
1
Where I worked for the DOD.

We were taught a simple rule
Stay on the ground,if you are in a hostage situation.

We were then told a DOD Hostage Rescue was consider successful with anything under 20% of the hostages killed.

We were also told DOD-HRT shoots anything standing up when breaching room to avoid a terrorist or gunman from spraying the hostages on the floor.

But in a pubic, 1 hostage life take, is the 72 Point Headline, not the 300 that were saved.

I stand by the belief it is still better to have ARMED guards in schools, than to allow a nut job or a terrorist free rein with 100's of kids for 10-15 mins.

deestafford
28807
Points
deestafford 08/26/13 - 09:30 am
3
1
Why not save money by training

and arming some of the teachers? No one would know who they were but they would be there. I think there are a number of districts in the country are doing that. The program would be made up of volunteers who went through a very extensive firearms and defense training course designed specifically for their situation and environment.

corgimom
34239
Points
corgimom 08/26/13 - 09:30 am
1
4
Do you really want to know

Do you really want to know how to stop these shootings?

Quit giving them media coverage. And change the mental health laws, and bring back the mental hospitals.

That's what fuels them, is being "famous" and "having their name go down in history" and "getting back at all the people that have hurt them"- it's the media coverage that goes on for years.

It's not even really about killing, they could go anywhere to do that. And they have.

Put the armed guards in schools, sure. Then they will just go somewhere else.

Walmart, skating rinks, cafeterias, post offices, McDonalds, theatres (that dude is from my home town, btw), malls, anywhere there are crowds of people.

I watched, on live TV, James Huberty shoot children at the San Ysidro McDonalds, back in 1984. I was 20 miles away, it was covered live. My mother and I saw the children come riding up on their bikes, I saw them get shot, crumple and fall down dead. I will never forget that. It was horrifying. I hope I never see anything like that again. When we saw them come riding up, I started screaming at the TV, "Go back, go back! Oh my God! Oh my God!"

After that, I never watched any coverage on shootings like that, ever again. I don't want to.

But here's what was said:: Eyewitnesses stated that he had previously been seen at the Big Bear supermarket and later at the U.S. Post Office. It was believed that he found the McDonald's to be a better target."

And there you go, it won't stop the shootings, it will just move them to somewhere else.

Little Lamb
47048
Points
Little Lamb 08/26/13 - 09:31 am
3
1
Simple Solution

It would cost very little money, but my solution would be to ban all persons except students and staff from the school buildings. You could put a portable classroom on the edge of campus for visitors. Whomever the visitor needs to see would have to leave the school buildings and go meet the visitor in the portable classroom.

Harden all entrances to the school buildings.

corgimom
34239
Points
corgimom 08/26/13 - 09:32 am
0
4
"No one would know who they

"No one would know who they were but they would be there. "

HAHAHA, there are NO SECRETS in any school, ever. EVER.

corgimom
34239
Points
corgimom 08/26/13 - 09:52 am
0
4
See, Little Lamb, that's

See, Little Lamb, that's unConstitutional, that denies parents access to their children. Children do not belong to a school, nor are they incarcerated, parents must have free access to their children. Their children belong to them, not a school district.

Oh yeah, I'd be foaming at the mouth if someone tried to do that to me. Because that's how abuses happen. Nobody would agree to that, ever. I wouldn't.

lifelongresident
1323
Points
lifelongresident 08/26/13 - 10:00 am
0
0
LANEY-WALKER REVITILIZATION
Unpublished

hey school board while you can find the time and precious dollars to remodel laney high school why not put in about a dozen jail cells this way you can give the "prah-jeck" gorillas an early start on what their life will be like since judging by the test scores and graduation rates ther's no learning going on anyway, since you are going to throw about 20 millions down a rat hole anyway why not just build jail cells because most of the students at laney will end up in the criminal justice system anyway....

Riverman1
87157
Points
Riverman1 08/26/13 - 10:41 am
3
1
Israel has 3 school personnel

Israel has 3 school personnel carrying a concealed gun in every school. Works for them.

Little Lamb
47048
Points
Little Lamb 08/26/13 - 11:31 am
3
0
Misread

You misread what I wrote, Corgi. Parents would have the right to see the child, but it would be in that portable building near the edge of the campus. Parent shows up at building, asks to see child, child is sent out to building where parent is.

corgimom
34239
Points
corgimom 08/26/13 - 12:02 pm
0
4
No, LL, a parent has the

No, LL, a parent has the right to see their child anywhere, anytime. They have the right to go into a classroom, anytime, anywhere.

Children in a public school aren't inmates, they haven't committed a crime, and neither have the parents.

You can't deny people their Constitutional rights over what you "think" might happen. And those school shooters aren't the parents, it's either the students or someone that has no connection to the school.

When people are restricted, and limited in visitors, and only allowed limited contact under very controlled conditions, they are called "inmates" and have had those freedoms legally taken away from them, either by arrest or court sentencing.

That's one of the things that keeps schools on the straight and narrow, is that they aren't locked off. I've seen enough in schools to know that open-door policy is needed and necessary, for everyone's safety and protection. Not just for the kids, not just for the parents, not just for the teachers, but for everybody.

Otherwise, kids could come home and say that there was a problem, and how could a parent investigate what they are saying?

I went into my son's classroom many times over the years, that helped keep tabs on what was happening to him at school. Sometimes it was to see for myself what a problem was, sometimes to talk to a teacher, sometimes to let my son know that yes, I WOULD come to school, whenever I felt like it, and sometimes, it was just to get an overall feel of what was happening in the classroom.

It's important to have that communication, we would find out a lot that way. Parents would tell us things, in conversation, that we wouldn't know otherwise, that we'd think, "Holy smokes, why didn't you TELL US THAT BEFORE!"

Little Lamb
47048
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Little Lamb 08/26/13 - 12:37 pm
3
0
Other Views?

Corgimom posted:

a parent has the right . . . to go into a classroom, anytime, anywhere.

I am no legal expert, but that statement sounds not quite right to me. Are there any school officials or legal beagles here who can back Corgimom up?

It seems to me that if parents barge into classrooms anytime, you would have disruption of the learning process.

jimmymac
42953
Points
jimmymac 08/26/13 - 01:13 pm
3
0
GUARDS
Unpublished

It's truly a sad day in America that it's become necessary to have armed personnel in a school. I agree teachers or staff if willing should be allowed to be trained and armed. It would be a cheaper alternative to police guards but someone should be there to stop the crazy's from doing harm to children.

harley_52
23959
Points
harley_52 08/26/13 - 06:39 pm
1
0
The ONLY Way....

....to stop an armed thug who's intent on killing children inside a school is to have armed personnel available to stop him.

Period.

I made that comment the day after Newtown and it's just as true today as it was then.

Why do you think there are armed guards at banks? Airports? Gated communities? Guarding important people?

HOW to insure school safety against such threats isn't the issue. Common sense is the issue and all the "progressive" objectors lack same.

Little Lamb
47048
Points
Little Lamb 08/26/13 - 06:43 pm
1
0
Boring

If you employ certified peace officers, you are going to have some bored, frustrated armed employees on your hands, since they will likely do their entire career as an armed school guard and never experience a single incident that needs a gun.

Arming teachers, principals, lunchroom managers, etc. might be a better approach. At least they will have other duties to keep them interested during the days in which there are no attacks.

GnipGnop
12467
Points
GnipGnop 08/26/13 - 06:53 pm
2
0
Sorry corgi but you are wrong

Go up to the school and demand to see your kids and if told no just walk down the hall anyway...it's an arrestable offense. If you are asked to leave and refuse that's also an arrestable offense. Your kids do not come before the safety of 600 hundred other kids.

harley_52
23959
Points
harley_52 08/26/13 - 07:16 pm
2
0
"Arming teachers, principals, lunchroom managers, etc....

....might be a better approach."

Lots of ways to do it. I didn't specify HOW, simply that having armed personnel available to stop the thug was the only way to do it.

Actually, I meant to say "only PRACTICAL way." There are other theoretical approaches, but none of them are practical.

harley_52
23959
Points
harley_52 08/26/13 - 07:21 pm
2
0
"Israel has 3 school personnel...

...carrying a concealed gun in every school. "

Remember the old saying that "necessity is the mother of invention?"

Israel has been dealing with these kinds of issues for a long time and have perfected the solutions. We should take a lesson from them about schools, airports, and any other security issue we need solved.

We should also take a lesson from them about veracity, tenacity, and revenge. They say what they mean and do what they say.

We don't.

Darby
27018
Points
Darby 08/26/13 - 08:47 pm
1
0
I'm willing to wager that there is not an

elementary school in Georgia that does not already have several CWC teachers. Designate one or two with the secondary assignment of security and your problem is solved.

You could even have a duty roster and rotate the position. (Please no silly whining about cowboy teachers shooting kids who get between him and the bad guy. Please?? In the real world, he would go to meet the bad guy, not cower behind the kids.)

No extra cost to the taxpayer and the "bad guys" will have no idea where the resistance will come from, unlike having a rent a cop on duty.

More likely than not, the teacher's weapon would never see the light of day, but would still have served its purpose.

corgimom
34239
Points
corgimom 08/26/13 - 09:19 pm
0
1
Little Lamb, any parent does,

Little Lamb, any parent does, but the schools don't want you to know that. Yes, it is disruptive, but it is legal. They don't like it, but they can't stop them.

GnipGnop, go to a school, demand to see your kids, and if they say no, call the police yourself. I sure would, no school has the right to say you can't see your kids,ever. A school cannot keep you from your child. Your child belongs to you, you are responsible for them 24 hours a day, you are legally responsible for their welfare and wellbeing at all times. If you think you need to see them, nobody can tell you no. They can escort you to the classroom, but they legally cannot keep you from your child. Ever. And legally, you don't have to have an escort. There is no state law that says you have to be escorted. There is no state law that says you cannot go to your child's classroom. They don't like it, but there's no state law that says you can't.

Now, after you've been arrested for causing a disturbance, or assaulting someone, they can tell the police to issue a no trespass order, and then the parent can't come onto school property. But they can't issue one until there is an arrest for misconduct on school property.

They cannot ask you to leave unless you are causing a disturbance, along the lines of disorderly conduct, in which case the police can arrest for DC. I've seen that done, btw, and it wasn't because somebody walked down the hall to see their child.

Listen, I've seen [filtered word]faced drunk parents, I've seen crazy parents, I've seen parents literally screaming, I've seen parents assaulting administrators. That's what gets you arrested, not saying "I need to see my child right now." They can't tell you no for that.

We had parents come in all the time. We were ok with it. We wished more parents came in to check on their kids, school would be different if more parents did that. In fact, usually the ones who dropped in to check were the parents who cared, who knew their child could be a handful and wanted to do a behavior check, and boy, did those kids stop on a dime when the parent showed up.

And we had some scary parents that we knew had some state all-expenses-paid staycations in their past, we had some that we knew were gang members, but you still can't keep them out without cause.

Little Lamb
47048
Points
Little Lamb 08/26/13 - 10:18 pm
0
0
Right Now

Yes, Corgi, if you request to see your child right now, the school system has the obligation to bring the child to you. They do not have the obligation to deliver you to the child's classroom and disrupt the others.

That is why I say that the school systems could set up an office at the perimeter of the school for parent, vendor, and visitor access. The person the visitor (parent, vendor, visitor) wishes to see can be brought to the perimeter office. That way, shooters don't get inside the building where the children are.

Casting_Fool
1175
Points
Casting_Fool 08/26/13 - 10:25 pm
1
0
I remember that shooting at

I remember that shooting at McDonalds, too. And the kids that maniac shot in Norway, the theater shooting, and the school shootings.

Which is why I carry 24/7. I never want to be in the position of finding myself confronting a shooter/knife wielder/etc. without the firepower to stop him or her dead in their tracks.

I always find a seat in a restaurant where I can see the doors, I pay attention to my surroundings, and I take carrying a weapon and gun safety very seriously.

Most shooters are cowards, even some of the crazy ones, and they will avoid areas where there are armed individuals.

"Gun safe zones" are nothing of the sort. They only serve to advertise to killers that this is a safe place to kill people or children, because no one will fire back at you.

As a responsible gun owner, should I ever find myself in a shooter situation, I would use an acronym to govern my actions: CAST

If possible, seek COVER, then ASSESS the situation, SEEK out the source of any fire, and TARGET the source if, and only if you have a clear line of sight to the target and beyond.

Of course, afterwards I'm probably going to need to change my trousers.

GnipGnop
12467
Points
GnipGnop 08/26/13 - 10:48 pm
0
0
Not during a school lockdown....

you will not get your kids...my wife worked at an elementary school and parents were threatened with arrest during lock downs. That's just like saying you can get your kids because they belong to you even if you don't have proper ID. You do not know what you are talking about.

GnipGnop
12467
Points
GnipGnop 08/26/13 - 10:54 pm
1
0
And for the record....

you can be arrested for disorderly conduct on public property at anytime. You can be asked to leave at anytime. Especially if you are ranting and raving. No educator has to release kids to a unstable parent. They certainly don't release them during a lock down...ever seen a school shooting? Parents don't get to rush the school and get their kids just because they "belong" to them.

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