In this YouTube video, Stevens Creek Church pastors Todd, Dave, and Kevin present the message of tithing in a unique format.
wondering if the church will give back 10% to those people left unemployed by the bush administration? that would be nice
Refreshinly different--but that 10% need not be in money (some don't have any!), so it can be 10% of your time to help another.
The preachers are desperate to squeeze whatever they can from the sheeple. Isn't is ironic that these lily-white brothers are trying to be cool by using the "music" of the black 'hoods to extract their booty (pun not intended). I'll bet you can count the Stevens Creek Church black pew-sitters on one finger or less. Isn't it amusing that the Christians say that the Old Testament rules and regulations (all 625 of them) were "nailed on the cross" and no longer in effect. Except of course, when one of those rules is of benefit to the religious industry, as is the case with the Old Testament law of tithing. The preachers are quick to say that one is very much in force, since their paychecks depend on enforcing it. ---- “Religion is a means of exploitation employed by the strong against the weak; religion is a cloak of ambition, injustice and vice . . . . Truth breaks free, science is popularized, and religion totters; soon it will fall, in the course of centuries--that is, tomorrow. . . . In good time we shall only have to deal with reason.”
(Georges Bizet, from Bizet, by William Dean. Colier Books, 1962)
i agree with The Knave...and why does God need so much money....i could relate more if this folks met in a field one day a week and praised their god. the video was lame...
Regardless of your beliefs on religion, I have a feeling the purpose was to entertain, to get a message across, not to come across as some Eminem wanna-be. For a couple of local pastors, it's fairly well executed, but I don't think anyone was fooled. It'd be like me getting up there and trying something like that. I'd look very white and very foolish.
Would it also be wrong if they did it in a jazz style, another genre with traditionally African-American roots?
It appears the church has been hurting for money lately when you consider videos like this one, as well as many others. In fact, I've witnessed a huge increase in tithe-related messages among churches that would have you believe that they pride themselves on being a departure from typical "Churchianity."
It doesn't surprise me; after all, people just don't have that much to give in these difficult economic times. Strangely, it makes more sense to coerce money from your congregation than to gladly accept whatever resources people are able and willing to give.
Let's all keep one thing straight - Jesus himself only praised giving when it meant sacrificing literally everything for him; how many really live up to that expectation? Frankly, if a church relies so much on money in order to do good Christian work, like building multimillion dollar facilities and paying six-figure salaries, they're doing it wrong.
Seriously Connor? You will look very white all day everyday for the rest of your life regardless of what you are doing.
The knave pretty much covered things. Organized religion is a complete manipulation of the weak and ignorant. One's faith, beliefs, or chosen religious ideaology should be personal in nature but organized religion such as Christianity and Islam have hijacked that notion all in the name of power and money. Power thirsts for money and money thirsts for power and organized religion has used this mantra and its brainwashed minions to terrorize the planet with its violence and atrocities at every turn throughout history all in an attempt to grow its power, wealth, or usually both and nowhere in the Bible or Qur'an have I seen that as a goal.
The very fact that the government exempts these churches from taxes all the while they are building multi-million dollar structures and suck down social service just like any other property owner is pure absurdity and shows the hypocrisy of it all.
What many of you (baronvonreich) fail to understand about tithing is it is an act of obedience towards God. God commands his children to give 10%, the first fruits of our labor to him. The offering collected by the church are used to sustain the church and to spread the message of God's love. People harp about multi-million dollar structures and other than a hand full of large churches this area churches are middle of the road and I don't know any minister who receives a six figure salary around here locally. Baron, I don't know how much personal you can get concerning Christianity because it is based on a personal relationship with Christ. All your negative comments concerning Christianity is just based on assumption and false accusations. Christianity is not based on money or power but on the Holy, Awesome, person of Almighty God. It's sad that so many have no idea what the truth is.
The first time tithe is mentioned in the Bible is Abraham's tithe of pagan spoils of war, and Abraham kept NOTHING for himself. This was NOT an act of worship. Biblical historians agree that it was custom in Abraham's day to give the king a tenth of the war spoils. Furthermore, Abraham made a vow that he would keep none of it. Genesis 14:8-24
The next mention of a tithe is Jacob's VOW to tithe. Jacob set the conditions, not God. Nowhere in The Word does it tell us that Jacob actually tithed. Genesis 28:10-22
Next is The Lord's Tithe. God gave His definition as a tenth of crops and animals which came from God's hand, not man's income. God NEVER commanded anyone to tithe on anything that man made or earned. Leviticus 27:30-33.
The ordinances (instructions, or laws) for The Lord's Tithe are in Numbers 18. God gave strict orders to take His tithe to the Levites. God NEVER changed that command. Anyone who takes God's tithe to anyone other than the Levites is being disobedient to God's Word.
There are others tithes in the Bible such as the Festival Tithe and the Tithe for the Poor. It is The Lord's Tithe that churches pattern their teaching after.
Church leaders ignore God's definition of His tithe, and ignore God's ordinances for His tithe. They change the words to fit their pocket book. This is nothing but manipulation of God's Word. They are false teachers.
The Bible CLEARLY SHOWS that the tithe ENDED at the cross in the Book of Hebrews. In the first nine verses of Hebrews 7 the words tenth or tithes appears SEVEN TIMES. The ONLY place in the Bible, after Calvary, that tithing appears is in Hebrews 7.
In Hebrews 7:5 we are told that Levi (the Levites) took the tithes under the law. In Hebrews 7:12 we are told that when the priesthood changes, the law will change. Hebrews 7:18 is telling us that Numbers 18 was disannulled. Numbers 18 established the Levitical priesthood, and part of that establishing included tithing. When the Levitical priesthood ended (at Calvary, or at least in the year 70AD when the temple was destroyed), all laws that established that priesthood were canceled. If Numbers 18 wasn't canceled, we would still be under the Levitical priesthood.
Those who argue they didn't have money or income then are really ignorant of what the scriptures say. They had money and wages, even in Genesis. The farmers had income from barter exchanges, and they had markets to buy and sell as proven in Deuteronomy 14:24-26.
Those who argue Malachi 3:8, robbing God, need to start with verse 7. God is talking about His ordinances in Numbers 18 which we learned were disannulled according to Hebrews 7:18. Also, if you start with Malachi 1, you will see that God is speaking to the priests, not the people. The priests robbed God of the tithe (Nehemiah 13) and the priests robbed God of the offerings (Malachi 1).
Preacher: You tithe on the first ten percent of your income.
God’s Word: You tithe on crops, and every tenth animal that passes under the rod. NOT the first, but the tenth. See Leviticus 27:30-33. Preachers are mixing firstfruits with the tithe and they are NOT the same. In Nehemiah 10:37-38 we learn that the firstfruits were taken to the temple for the priests, and the tithe was taken to the Levites to go into their cities.
Preacher: The Levites worked full-time at The Temple.
God’s Word: The Levities and priests were divided into “24 courses” and they rotated working at The Temple one week out of every 24 weeks. Therefore, the priests and Levites actually worked at The Temple about two weeks a year. The rest of the time they had regular jobs. See First Chronicles 24 for the priests and chapters 25 and 26 for the Levites.
Preacher: You tithe the BEST to God.
God’s Word: You tithe every tenth animal whether that animal be good OR BAD. See Leviticus 27:30-33.
Preacher: The firstfruits of your income belong to God.
God’s Word: In the Old Testament, every time a firstfruits offering is mentioned it is referring to the first of the crop, assets that came from God’s hand, not man’s labor. Firstfruits offerings has nothing to do with income.
Preacher: The tithe was taken to The Temple.
God’s Word: The tithe was taken to the Levites to go into their cities. See Nehemiah 10:37-38.
Preacher: Malachi 3:10 Take all the tithes to the storehouse.
God’s Word: The Levites received the tithe, and they were required to take a tenth of the tithe to the priests. ONLY that tithe went to the storehouse, NOT the tithe from the people. Again, see Nehemiah 10:37-38.
Preacher: You are robbing God if you don’t bring your tithe to the church. Malachi 3:8-10.
God’s Word: The priests were robbing God, not the people. The priests robbed God of the tithe by stealing the Levites portion (Nehemiah 13). The priests robbed God of the offerings by giving the worst and keeping the best (Malachi 1).
God defined His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33 as HOLY. How dare anyone change God’s definition and then call a tenth of their income a HOLY tithe!
Thanks ICL, you just saved me from having to type all that. Yes, it is sad that no one else on here has a clue. I give my 10 and more because God is Lord of every part of my life even my finances! I think this was a real fun way to communicate a biblical message to the church members. I know the folks at this church and they are not "hurting" for money. It's all about giving God what belongs to Him beginning with your heart. If you don't give a 100% of your heart He doesn't want the 10% of your money!
garyarnold, sounds to me your trying to justify a reason for not giving to the Lord. Fine, keep it and refer to my last post.
Here we go "a pickin and a choosin" which scriptures are valid. God said not to eat swine, sleep with menstruating women, or mix fibers but I don't see anybody getting stoned in the streets for that anymore. Believe what you want and do whatever you like in an attempt to improve your sense of self-worth. Just don't trample on the rights of others and implore the government to do the trampling for you. And pay your taxes. Chrurches are no more a charity or communtiy service provider any more than a comic book store.
Are they in a church or a state-of-the-art concert hall? It's so wonderful to see that "God's" money is going to the needy, and that churches are tax exempt.
Baron, as always you are speaking out the other end of your body. Don't go stating what Christians are or are not since you have no authority on the subject. And personally I don't care whether we are tax free or not but I bet we do more for the people of this community than you ever have!
brimisjoshan said, "garyarnold, sounds to me your trying to justify a reason for not giving to the Lord. Fine, keep it and refer to my last post."
Not so. I am a generous, sacrificial giver. I give according to New Testament teaching - FROM THE HEART, according to my means, NOT any particular percentage.
The Biblical tithe was PAID, not given. It was NOT a gift. It wasn't giving.
In too many cases those who tithe are the stingy ones. I have known well too many who give their ten percent to the church, and then a little more, and think they are pleasing God. I know that if I were to only give ten, fifteen, or even twenty percent of my income God would not be pleased at all. Those who really pray and follow The Spirit in their giving are the ones who give the most, not the stingy tithers.
Just because someone isn't a tither doesn't mean they don't give.
But I also know those who cannot afford to give even 5 percent of their income as that would mean not paying their bills - food, rent, etc.
The scriptures are clear to me that tithing is NOT appropriate in the Christian Church. I am a Money and Finance Minister and teach giving and good stewardship on 100% of what God puts into our hands.
Too many churches concentrate on the 10 percent instead of the more important 90 percent. Those who pray over their expenditures, BEFORE they buy, usually wind up having much more to give to those in need.
Teach giving correctly, and more money will be given. Teach tithing and many will resist this Old Testament law that was nailed to the cross.
It is perplexing to me why people think I don't want to give to The Lord when I quote scripture.
Leviticus 27:30-33 God's definition of His tithe.
Numbers 18 Ordinances, or instructions, for God's tithe
Hebrews 7:5,12,18 shows Numbers 18 was disannulled
Those who criticize my posts seldom have any scripture to quote.
Do you put your trust in man?
Do you put your trust in your own thoughts?
OR Do you put your trust in God's Word?
I put my trust in God's Word by following it and not changing it to fit what I want it to say.
garyarnold, although you post may seem well verse you are sadly mistaken. Refer to verses 16-23. Abram attacked the 4 Kings because they kidnapped his nephew Lot. After the attack he gave a 10th of the goods to King Melchizedek because he was a priest of God Most High which was a requirement. He didn't keep any of the goods because he had taken a oath before God that he wouldn't accept anything.
As for Jacob's promise to God in Genesis 28, he made a vow to God and if you would continue to read about Jacob, God did indeed provide for Jacob and if Jacob made a vow to God, I'm sure he kept it whether it ever states it in following chapters or not. Whether he did or not is really not the point, the point is Jacob was willing to give God a tenth of everything God gave him.
In Numbers, the Levites were responsible for the duties of the Tent of Meeting. In Malachi, he urged the people to stop holding back the tithes from God. If the tithes were not for God and for the Levites as you say, then why did he address the people concerning this. I will agree that the mentioning in Hebrews where the Levites role ended when Christ died on the cross but no where does it mention that tithing ended. Instead of giving our tithes to the Levites to use for the Glory of God, we now under the new covenant give our tithes to Christ (through the giving to the church to further Christ ministries). Everything we have is God's anyway so when we refuse to give back it's the same as robbing God which God chastised the people in Malachi.
There are so many inaccuracies in your post, it would take too long to correct all of them but hopefully others will do some research and see for themselves that you can take any verses in the Bible and make them say what you want but when you read the whole text and really study the Word, then God will reveal the truth.
Just as an after thought, if you don't want to tithe, please don't because God loves a cheerful giver and if you give it because you have to, then it's really not a gift for God anyway.
garyarnold, sounds to me like you are bragging about how much you give. Don't you remember the story about the women who put a coin in the offering and according to Christ that was more than the rich put in the plate.
You may be a Minister of Finance and Money but according to your post, I do not feel you are a Minister of God. Tithing is an act of faith. Give what is God and he will bless you over and over.
You said "But I also know those who cannot afford to give even 5 percent of their income as that would mean not paying their bills - food, rent, etc." Sounds to me they are not good stewards of God's money. If someone is sincere in their giving and all they can start out with is 1 percent or 5 percent, then that is what they need to give. God will bless it and multiply it. But when their blessings increase then they need to increase their giving to God. It's called Faith. Faith that God will provide.
I would love to continue this conversation but 5am comes early. May God give you rest.
A pickin' and a choosin' - Got to love it!
InChristLove said, “After the attack he gave a 10th of the goods to King Melchizedek because he was a priest of God Most High which was a requirement.”
Historians say it was custom. The Bible does NOT say it was a requirement. The Bible says Abraham GAVE not PAID.
InChristLove said, “…Jacob made a vow to God, I'm sure he kept it whether it ever states it in following chapters or not. Whether he did or not is really not the point, the point is Jacob was willing to give God a tenth of everything God gave him.”
You are full of assumptions not backed up by The Word. You are sure Jacob kept his vow. I’m not so sure. The Word doesn’t tell us and I am not about to make assumptions. You say the point is Jacob was willing to give God a tenth – again, an assumption. Maybe he was, and maybe he wasn’t. The Word sure doesn’t tell us that he did, in fact, give a tenth of anything.
InChristLove said, “If the tithes were not for God and for the Levites as you say,…”
Where did I say that? I said the tithe WAS God’s, and He gave it to the Levites.
InChristLove said, “Instead of giving our tithes to the Levites to use for the Glory of God, we now under the new covenant give our tithes to Christ…”
Yes, that is what YOU do. But it is not Biblical. God NEVER gave the Christian Church permission to receive His tithe. What right do you have to changed God’s directions? I stick with the Bible. You make it up the way you think it should be.
InChristLove said, “Everything we have is God's anyway so when we refuse to give back it's the same as robbing God which God chastised the people in Malachi.”
How is giving to the church giving back to God? There is no scripture to back up your assertion. Not giving God’s tithe to the Levites is robbing God. God said to take His tithe to the Levites, yet you are taking what you believe to be His tithe to your church. THAT, my friend, is considered robbing God. Think about it – HOW did the people pay God His tithe? By taking it to the Levites.
InChristLove said, “There are so many inaccuracies in your post …”
You haven’t shown any inaccuracies in my post. What I have written follows the scriptures. What you write follows what man wants it to say.
InChristLove said, “Just as an after thought, if you don't want to tithe, please don't because God loves a cheerful giver and if you give it because you have to, then it's really not a gift for God anyway.”
Yes, God loves a cheerful GIVER, not a cheerful PAYER. The Lord’s Tithe was PAID, not given. The Lord’s Tithe had absolutely NOTHING to do with giving. It was law. It was required.
Since the Word does NOT say that God told Abraham to tithe, or Jacob to tithe, or that Melchezidek had been given permission to accept God’s tithe, neither Abraham’s tithe nor Jacob’s tithe was claimed by The Lord. God ONLY claimed the tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33. No other tithe can correctly be called God’s tithe, or The Lord’s Tithe.
God gave His definition and His ordinances. You follow neither. I follow both.
Do a little research and you will find that NO church taught tithing on income until the second half of the 1800s. Then research, as I have done, just why different denominations started teaching and collecting the tithe. You might be surprised, and actually angry as to what you find.
To conclude: I am a generous giver, not a tither. I have always been and always will be a sacrificial giver. I am a cheerful giver or I wouldn't give in the first place. I have no problem with someone giving a tenth of their income to wherever, but I DO have a problem calling it The Lord's Tithe. God said His tithe is HOLY. It came from God's miracles, NOT man's income. I am not good enough to where a tenth of my earnings would be Holy. I don't try to elevate myself to that level.
Those who call a tenth of their earnings The Lord's Tithe are cheapening God's tithe, and insulting God. I trust that God gave us His Word to follow, not change.
While the discussion is on churches and religion, I'd like to hear other's views on churches being exempt from taxes. ALL taxes; income and property. It seems to me that if The Constitution calls for a separation of Church and State, then there should not be a tax exemption. Why should an Agnostic or Atheist have to subsidize a church? Just think of all the prime real-estate that the Catholic Church owns in NYC, Chicago, etc. that they pay no tax on. Just look across the river, in North Augusta, at all the churches that occupy downtown and struggling homeowners have to pay the churches share for police, fire and education monies. Is this fair? Is it constitutional? BTW, I was baptised in the Catholic Church and I possess spiritual beliefs.
As with anything, we humans can always find justification for not doing what we know we are suppose to do. God is to be put first in every area of our lives and when we put Him first in our giving then he promises we will receive abundant blessings (and this doesn't mean more money). The truth is, if we have really given ourselves to the Lord, we will be a giver and although we may not be rich it will be our desire to help others who are in need. The offerings given to the church go towards many ministries to help people in need in the community. Proverbs 3:9-10 says "Honor the Lord by giving him the first paart of all your income, and he will fill your barns with wheat and barley and overflow your wine vats with the finest wines." (TLB) If we fail to put God first in the area of giving, it is doubtful that God will have any place at all, where real obedience is concerned.
InChristLove - I agree with most of your last post.
You use TLB to quote Proverbs 3:9-10. I use the more accurate translation KJV which reads quite differently.
Proverbs 3:9 (KJV)
9 Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:
10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.
HONOUR the Lord, not give to The Lord.
Firstfruits of all thine increase means the first of the produce, or crops, which is substantiated by verse 10, so that our barns be filled with plenty.
If you check the Hebrew, EVERY time firstfruits is used in the Old Testament, it is referring to produce, or crops, NEVER anything else.
As far as money goes, what about 1 Timothy 5:8 - But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
1 Timothy 5:8 means that IF you give to the church first, and then don't have enough left to support your family, you are worse than a non-believer.
We give OURSELVES first to The Lord, not our money.
garyarnold, if you give God the first, then he will provide what you need for you and your family. I will agree we are to give ourselves to God first and then by trusting and obeying we will want to give our first, whether it be crops or monetary gifts, to God before taking care of our needs. The scripture you are quoting is referring to taking care of widows and instructing their children and grandchildren to provide for their needs. In verse 8 it says if the widow's relatives do not care for the widow, he has denied his faith and is worse than an unbeliever. This scripture is not refering to tithing, it is in reference of taking care of family. It says that the family should take care of their family needs and not depend on the church, not that we shouldn't tithe. Explain to me if no one tithes then how is the church suppose to take care of the poor and needy, how does the church spread the gospel of Christ, how do we show our faith that God will supply all our needs. Sounds to me like you don't have much faith if you say, I'm going to take care of me first and then whatever is left I'll give to the Lord. Are we not then relying on ourselves instead of relying on God?
InChristLove said, "Explain to me if no one tithes then how is the church suppose to take care of the poor and needy, how does the church spread the gospel of Christ, how do we show our faith that God will supply all our needs."
Simple. By free-will giving. Not all denominations teach tithing. Not all Baptist Church pastors teach tithing.
Pastor John MacArthur's mega church in California does not teach tithing, yet it is a mega church.
All of the following well-known scholars agree that tithing ENDED AT THE CROSS, and that there is NO tithing in the Christian Church.
Scholars at the Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary who published their report on tithing in 2005, John MacArthur, Chuck Swindoll, J. Vernon McGee, Robert Baker (chief SBC historian), Dr. David Croteau and Dr. Russell Kelly (both of whom wrote their thesis on tithing to get their Ph.D.), Phillip Schaff (historian), Alfred Edersheim, James W. Winfree Ministries, C. I. Scofield, Craig Blomberg (Denver Seminary), Geoffrey W. Bromiley (Fuller Theological Seminary), Charles Ryrie (Dallas Theological Seminary), Walter A. Elwell (Wheaton College), Theodore H. Epp (founder Back to the Bible), Gary Friesen (former Dean of Multinomah College), Scholars at the Dallas Theological Seminary, Dalls Theological Seminary, Talbot Bible College, and the list goes on and on.
Regarding 1 Timothy 5:8
From New Commentary on the Whole Bible: If in any case a duty of love is plain, it is in relation to one’s own relatives. To fail in so clear an obligation is a plain lack of love and therefore lack of faith. worse than an infidel [unbeliever]—The unbelievers are taught by nature to provide for their own family, and they generally recognize this duty. The Christian who fails to do this is worse.
From The Ryrie Study Bible: Providing for one’s own relatives, and especially immediate family (household), is a believer’s duty.
Adam Clarke’s Commentary: But if any provide not for his own—His own people or relatives. Those of his own house—That is, his own family, or a poor widow or relative that lives under his roof. Hath denied the faith—The Christian religion, which strongly inculcates love and benevolence to all mankind. Is worse than an infidel—For what are called the dictates of nature lead men to feel for and provide for their own families.
And many more agree.
InChristLove said, "garyarnold, sounds to me like you are bragging about how much you give. ..... You may be a Minister of Finance and Money but according to your post, I do not feel you are a Minister of God."
I haven't said how much I give. I said that God wouldn't be please if I didn't give according to what I have. By my statements, you don't know if I give anything at all, or if I give all my income, or if it's somewhere in-between. DON'T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS.
You don't believe I am a minister of God - why, because I stick with the scriptures?
I have given my life to God. I don't charge one penny for my services. I have written a couple books which I GIVE to whoever wants them as a FREE download. I GIVE, not take.
I have a right to keep all my money but I choose to give up that right and be a generous giver.
Paul said he had a right to be paid for his preaching but he gave up that right and said he would rather die than sell the gospel.
Pastors have a right to be paid, and most of them exercise that right.
DOUBLE STANDARD - the pastor wants me to give up my right to my money, but the pastor wants to exercise his right to be paid!
I refuse to take any donations for my ministry. I do it FOR GOD. God has already blessed me to the point there is no way I could ever pay Him back.
I am sick and tired of wolves in sheep's clothing fleecing the flock.
My own pastor (that is, previous pastor) who taught and collected the tithe told me in a private meeting that he knows tithing ended at the cross, but said he had to make people believe it is still valid because people just don't want to give.
There are few pastors that I personally know that I would trust any more than a used-car salesman. That's not to say all of them, but most of them that I personally know.
But God has assured me that this is His fight, not mine. He only uses me as a messenger.
Garyarnold,and others,Judge not that ye be not judged,for with that judgement ye judge,ye shall be judged.Quit worrying about who tithes and what they tithe.If you gave a quarter from your heart,that's more important than someone giving a thousand dollars.Its not mine or your business what someone else gives,that's our problem in society today.We need worry about ourselves.
You are right backagain but since the article was concerning tithing then one would only assume that the comments would be about the same subject (or should be). If you wish not to hear comments concerning tithing then may I suggest you read a different post.
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